M4L Stability

Questions and discussion about building and using Max for Live devices
Stromkraft
Posts: 7033
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am

Re: M4L Stability

Post by Stromkraft » Mon May 18, 2015 9:29 am

Reimund wrote:not sure if this helps but after the last round of windows updates m4l is now completely unusable on my windows 7 64bit system. before, the workaround (load m4l midi device and wait for 15 to 30 seconds) worked quite nicely and i was able to load almost all of my m4l devices. now after the updates i get immediate crashes whenever i load a m4l device (even when using the workaround mentioned above). maybe it is helpful to take a closer look at the changes that were introduced by the last round of windows updates to find out where the problems with live and m4l lie. although i realized that the windows updates introduced some changes to the registry i'm unfortunately not able to tell what the exact changes were that were introduced by the latest updates.
cheers
Typically in this type of situation on Windows, uninstalling and subsequent re-installation of the application with issues is what I resort to. I know some people reinstall Windows with regular one year cycles or so, but I haven't done that myself.
Make some music!

Reimund
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:48 pm

Re: M4L Stability

Post by Reimund » Mon May 18, 2015 10:55 am

Eanna wrote:Hi Reimund, you have a couple of options here...

You can look at what patches were applied during the last round of Windows Updates. If you're on Win7, go to Control Panel > System and Security > Windows Update > View update history.
If you want to back out any update, go here: Control Panel > Programs > Programs and Features > Installed Updates. Right-click on any update you want to uninstall.
Worst comes to worst, roll back to a System Restore Point. Your application files won't be affected - only system updates applied since the restore point was creater are rolled back, so the system is restored to the Resore Point date.
You need to have the creation of Restore Points switched on, but I'm pretty sure that option is enabled by default, and there's no doubt that the installation of Windows Updates kicks off the creation of a Restore Point prior to the installation...
To see the set of Restore Points, in the Start menu, type System Restore, or in a Run box, type rstrui.exe. Follow the steps in the wizard to choose the restore point. Check this for more info: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-ie/wind ... d-settings

Might be worthwhile checking the Windows Event Log too here. Go to Control Panel > System and Security > Administrative Tools > Event Viewer. Check to see if there's anything obvious sticking out at you in terms of errors, especially since the last set of Windows Updates were installed.

Have you issues with other DAWs? Does it affect Ableton Live, or is it only when Ableton launches M4L?

Cheers, Eanna
thanks eanna for the helpful comments, i will have a look after work. live 9 per se is not affected, only the launching of m4l devices. no issues with other daws, i.e. cubase 8 and bitwig 1.17.

[rry]
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:09 pm
Location: Ableton HQ

Re: M4L Stability

Post by [rry] » Mon May 18, 2015 10:58 am

Stromkraft wrote: Typically in this type of situation on Windows, uninstalling and subsequent re-installation of the application with issues is what I resort to. I know some people reinstall Windows with regular one year cycles or so, but I haven't done that myself.
That's good advice.

And failing that please do send us some Crash Reports to Support.
I just checked through our inbox and didn't spot anything from you, Reimund.
Cheers,
Rory.

Daniel Morgenroth
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: M4L Stability

Post by Daniel Morgenroth » Tue May 19, 2015 11:16 am

Reimund wrote:not sure if this helps but after the last round of windows updates m4l is now completely unusable on my windows 7 64bit system. before, the workaround (load m4l midi device and wait for 15 to 30 seconds) worked quite nicely and i was able to load almost all of my m4l devices. now after the updates i get immediate crashes whenever i load a m4l device (even when using the workaround mentioned above).
I usually google/duckduckgo "windows update" around the 20th of each month (second tuesday every month is patch-day, I believe).

Almost every month, there's some site listing the patches that are known to create problems, sometimes up to bluescreens.

I have "automatic updates" deactivated, so then I search for windows-updates manually and delete/don't install the problematic patches.

This month, Patches KB3020370 and KB3045645 shouldn't be installed. Maybe these are the ones causing M4L-Problems, too?

Here's the german site on which I found this info: http://business.chip.de/news/Wieder-cra ... 19884.html

As I just got Max (7.0.3) to work a little better, I'll stay away from windows-updates for now.

This situation makes me want to sing that Everly-Brothers-Song again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebkxzU2mATU

f.poce@tiscali.nl
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:14 pm

Re: M4L Stability

Post by f.poce@tiscali.nl » Tue May 19, 2015 4:49 pm

Just for the records, problem (and workaround) also mentioned on ableton.com.
https://www.ableton.com/en/help/article ... h-windows/

Gr
Fab

musikmachine
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:56 am

Re: M4L Stability

Post by musikmachine » Sat May 30, 2015 5:19 pm

Happy to say i've been using the J74 Progessive stuff the past few days and not a single crash, starting to trust Max a bit more now. :)

Daniel Morgenroth
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: M4L Stability

Post by Daniel Morgenroth » Sun May 31, 2015 1:17 pm

Reimund wrote:not sure if this helps but after the last round of windows updates m4l is now completely unusable on my windows 7 64bit system. before, the workaround (load m4l midi device and wait for 15 to 30 seconds) worked quite nicely and i was able to load almost all of my m4l devices. now after the updates i get immediate crashes whenever i load a m4l device (even when using the workaround mentioned above).
cheers
Yo Reimund!

I just installed last round of Windows (7, 64-bit)-Updates, using the method I described in my earlier post.

Didn't install the two patches that were known to create problems.

And I have no problems with either Max 6.1.10 or Max 7.0.3.

Well, I don't have any "new" problems related to Windows-Updates, just the usual "Max-Problems", to be precise.

P.S.: Something I found out about switching to Max7: Some older Max-Patches don't work with Max7. Mostly GUI-glitches. So at the moment I'm jumping back and forth between Max6 and 7, depending on what patch I plan to use.

[rry]
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:09 pm
Location: Ableton HQ

Re: M4L Stability

Post by [rry] » Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:36 am

Hi all,

We have some news on this front regarding the recent Windows crashes. Cycling 74 have supplied us with some potential fixes.
To test the fixes, the attached maxurl objects should replace the maxurl objects in the respective Max 7 folders. (Free free to rename the older versions in order to keep them as a back up.)

x86:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Cycling '74\Max 7\resources\extensions\max
replaced with:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/odvtv92ge71pe ... 6.zip?dl=0

or

x64:
C:\Program Files\Cycling '74\Max 7\resources\extensions\max
replaced with:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kgd01pxpkt6x8 ... 4.zip?dl=0

After replacing these, please try launch one of the problematic sets without any crash-avoiding workarounds, to see if the crashes continue!
Look forward to hearing back with any info. :wink:

Best,
Rory

Angstrom
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Contact:

Re: M4L Stability

Post by Angstrom » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:08 pm

That max7 takes a long long loooooooooooooooong time to load eh?
I guess it's the extra debug stuff they added but I confess I flipped back to Max6 just to get Ableton started quicker.

I guess I'll drop these new components in and try it again, but by Satan's beard its a painfully long startup with Max 7 in the loop.

[rry]
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:09 pm
Location: Ableton HQ

Re: M4L Stability

Post by [rry] » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:39 pm

Hi Angstrom,

Seems strange, I haven't experienced anything unusually long. Is this when simply adding a device, or opening the editor?
It might be worthwhile giving the Max 7 install a repair. You can do this by deleting the 'support' folder, and then running the installer again, and selecting 'repair installation'.

Best
r

Angstrom
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Re: M4L Stability

Post by Angstrom » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:08 pm

[rry] wrote:Hi Angstrom,

Seems strange, I haven't experienced anything unusually long. Is this when simply adding a device, or opening the editor?
It might be worthwhile giving the Max 7 install a repair. You can do this by deleting the 'support' folder, and then running the installer again, and selecting 'repair installation'.

Best
r
well, the I thought the Max 7 install went very well considering my usual Max6 install involves bluescreens and system restores to get it going. Max 7 installed very smoothly and without issue, I can re-install it but I don't suspect that's the issue here.


L9.2 Beta 10 with max 6.x takes 14 seconds from the first appearance of the splash screen to the first appearance of the template set (although still buffering samples etc.)

L9.2 Beta 10 with max 7.x takes 45 seconds from the first appearance of the splash screen to the first appearance of the template set

I will install the new fixes and see if that improves matters

Angstrom
Posts: 14741
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Re: M4L Stability

Post by Angstrom » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:14 pm

hmm, not brilliantly.

I started Live up with the new fixes from Cycling and after 20 seconds Live9.2 b10 crashed without any user input.the only clues being
"You are using a newer version of 'maxurl' than was shipped with Max 7.0.3 Please verify your installation and search paths
I don't have any additional time for this unstable pile of crap right now. I wish it had never happened

Reimund
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:48 pm

Re: M4L Stability

Post by Reimund » Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:15 pm

[rry] wrote:Hi all,

We have some news on this front regarding the recent Windows crashes. Cycling 74 have supplied us with some potential fixes.
To test the fixes, the attached maxurl objects should replace the maxurl objects in the respective Max 7 folders. (Free free to rename the older versions in order to keep them as a back up.)

x86:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Cycling '74\Max 7\resources\extensions\max
replaced with:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/odvtv92ge71pe ... 6.zip?dl=0

or

x64:
C:\Program Files\Cycling '74\Max 7\resources\extensions\max
replaced with:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kgd01pxpkt6x8 ... 4.zip?dl=0

After replacing these, please try launch one of the problematic sets without any crash-avoiding workarounds, to see if the crashes continue!
Look forward to hearing back with any info. :wink:

Best,
Rory
hi rory, yes it works now. no more crashes, even when using time and timbre which before always led to an instant crash. no more workarounds, m4l devices were launched immediately for the test. so far i tried the convolution reverb, time and timbre, the chaos effects by amazing noises and buffer shuffler, all without problems. my system: windows 7 64 bit, live 9.1.9 64 bit and max 7.0.3 64 bit.
may i say that i'm really, really happy that this problem seems to be solved. thank you very much!! :D :D :D

Eanna
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:04 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: M4L Stability

Post by Eanna » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:59 pm

Hi, early indications are good here too.
Loaded Sonic Faction Sickness (big sample-based m4l synth), Time and Timbre, and Convolution Reverb Pro.
No crashes.

Things definitely had improved with Max 7.0.3, but this feels better again...

I still get Stuttering / Glitching behaviour when multiple m4l devices are in use. But now that M4L is generally stable, Ive narrowed down the problem to be primarily associated with the Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 interface. I have another Audio Interface (Creamware/SonicCore Scope PCI Cards) that help me isolate the issue as being specific to Focusrite drivers.
My Scope PCI card audio interface can occasionally still glitch when the heavy-hitting m4l devices are in play in a set, showing a 100 percent CPU spike for a second or two, where the mouse becomes unresponsive, maybe once every five or ten mins or so, but with the Focusrite scarlett drivers, this happens far more often - once every 30 seconds or so.
To replicate this, just add Time and Timbre to a Track, and put Convolution Reverb Pro after T&T. Set the sequence in motion by hitting Play on the master transport, and sit back and listen.
I will dig further, to see if I can discern a pattern - now that M4L appears to be generally more stable for me now, I feel less concerned that I will screw up my Live sets by the use of M4L, and focus away from M4L instability to other component parts of my setup. Possibly its something up with my PC hardware that is at fault, but I do run a very tight ship here.

In general, M4L does appear to expose weakness in Live, audio interface drivers, Memory usage (it really is a dog on the RAM usage!) and who knows what else - M4L is a good way to stress any system.

I am relieved, thankful, and hopeful that similar issues will be addressed more quickly in future. There is little doubt that we need a better logging subsystem to trace these bugs in future, so that we, as userbase, can help you in Ableton and Cycling74 to more quickly diagnose and subsequently fix these kinds of issue.

[rry]
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:09 pm
Location: Ableton HQ

Re: M4L Stability

Post by [rry] » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:34 am

Thanks for the update folks. Extremely happy to hear that. I'll pass on the info Cycling 74, which will hopefully end up included in the next release of Max 7.
I'm very optimistic about things now with the better logging system in place. We can trace crashes much more effectively, get them out of the way, and have more time for important things like improving overall stability and making strange noises...

@Eanna: Sounds annoying, it might be worthwhile generating a latest Status Report with the Focusrite driver active and sending it to us: 'support@ableton.com'
@Angstrom: check PMs!

Thanks again, and keep any feedback coming!

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