Trouble with detuning

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timday
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 1:02 pm

Trouble with detuning

Post by timday » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:42 pm

Hi all, new to M4L (or rather building stuff in it, I us eother people's stuff all the time). I don't know how well I'm going to explain this but.....

I'm building a basic subtractive synth using cycle~s as oscillators with buffer~ objects supplying the waveforms in the same way as the "Building FM synths" set in the live lessons.

My problem is that I want to be able to detune the oscillators. I've turned the mtof into a signal using a number~, this sets the frequency of the cycles and I have set up detuners which send out a frequency multiplication factor to multipliers in the frequency signal paths. (I've done it this way because the pitchbend I have built works on the same principle and because pitchbend info can happen at any time I need it to be continuous not just affect note ons).

The problem is that if I detune one oscillator and tune it back the oscillators will be out of phase (evidenced by the fact that saw+ and saw- no longer cancel). I could get the detuners to send out a float affecting the number~ rather than a signal which would, I think, alleviate the problem, but later on I wiant to have a pitch LFO and envelopes which will affect teh oscilators indicidually so the problem will come back.

So what I want I think is a way to retrigger the cycle~s either per note or possibly whenever fhe frequency changes to keep them in phase. I've tried putting a phasor~ into the phase inlet but that doesn't seem to do it and I've tried sending a click~ in in the hope fat that might retrigger but that doesn't work either. So does anyone know a way of doing this, or a different type of object (wave~ maybe)? tat will retrigger the way I want? I don't particularly want to rebuild my oscillators using saw~ and square~ objects etc, I'd like to find a way using cycle~s or equivalent and buffer~s if there is one.

kleine
Posts: 1854
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2001 11:46 am
Location: ableton
Contact:

Re: Trouble with detuning

Post by kleine » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:10 pm

It would help if you'd post a patch to see what you're doing. Apart from that, you can reset the phase of a cycle~ e.g. like this:

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
438.3ocwT1saiBCDE9Z3ovxWSi.SID1WkpUqbLiRbEXirMsIaUxy9hGGRa5l
EQih5disli+YlOOG3s3H5Z8NvRI+f7DIJ5s3nHTxKDcJNh1x2IZ3VbaTgtsE
TNZRXMGryg5ca4VfX.KbdsNtSrUp17KCHbgbjmVrnHgrZ0hzDRYtejktHk7y
SGQ02JUMfCyU16h5d2nZ5IUqaeCfodLexZLTu94GxxodsCww9gjYxVKXs7Mv
ewV5hIPhU9nGi.RrJOdL1+BI1UQZDzfjaeGDtZJ87sLMsY2BsJ30gCe0Fo1b
jvlh4ANGnMKeoeZI9.b2f1J2n3MyD8pagbqP2AGmfurxpP2rLfY54ouBgyxo
dSFU320bwT.vpvNSVIV4OVLNd2Ke1cz4I1KZlUao.+VaYw+Oa2EevgGg1HUe
9OoHBd8KeKr5diXLsgaKg7ND0f0IUbmTq9vdxuXOak00f5icoZokutAvRL8p
8j4VMUynZ7Ub12R0jMmGmparbBcNdW2Kfwd5JwJYvu9r13CKSvPoJDhlJpAd
QNteLGTtYvr5Fbp8lfoY2pkzvQ00fQ0KQyWrOyGh+CvZHDKZ
-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>

timday
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 1:02 pm

Re: Trouble with detuning

Post by timday » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:31 pm

Ah, well, one of the problems is that I didn't know how to save a patch as text, or having picked up a patch saved as text, open it in mMax. For example, I can't figure out how to get your patch to open... :oops:

kleine
Posts: 1854
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2001 11:46 am
Location: ableton
Contact:

Re: Trouble with detuning

Post by kleine » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:42 pm

copy the code, go to Max and choose 'New from Clipboard' in the File menu.

If you want to save as a text (as i did), select the code and choose 'copy compressed' from the File menu.

timday
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 1:02 pm

Re: Trouble with detuning

Post by timday » Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:27 pm

OK got it, here it is for what it's worth -
To illustrate the problem
1) play a note
2) set one of the oscillators to saw-, they will cancel (as they should)
3) reset it to saw+, detune an oscillator, tune it back again. the sound has changed and setting to saw- no longer cancels

I've tried putting the phasor~ in as you suggest, I tried it going to both cycle~s phase inputs simultaneously so they should retrigger at the same time and come back into phase, but they don't. The detune and the pitchbend use the same mechanism which hopefully you will be able to see but after a lot of messing around I don't think that is the isse, I think that when the oscillators are detuned they go out of phase and don't come back into phase again. But I could be wrong.

Thanks for your time on this. I'm new to this and ,ight well be doing it wrong but i can't figure out why the retriggering is such a problem.

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
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-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>

kleine
Posts: 1854
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2001 11:46 am
Location: ableton
Contact:

Re: Trouble with detuning

Post by kleine » Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:47 pm

Is this what you want?

<pre><code>
----------begin_max5_patcher----------
5675.3oc6csziiabD97t+JDD7gjryxv9cybH.NNImRfArARNr1X.GINyPaJR
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-----------end_max5_patcher-----------
</code></pre>

timday
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 1:02 pm

Re: Trouble with detuning

Post by timday » Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:11 pm

I will have to try that tomorrow evening now or maybe later (away from my Ableton machine for a day or so) but will let you know. Thanks!

timday
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 1:02 pm

Re: Trouble with detuning

Post by timday » Mon Mar 07, 2016 11:22 pm

OK have managed to open it on a different machine.....staying with friends with Ableton!
That seems to pretty much do it although oddly the waves almost but don't quite cancel when on saw+ and saw-, and the waveshapes aren't quite precise now (e.g. the square is more trapezoid than square....is that the effect of the phasor~?)

I know it's a final massive ask but can you confirm how that works.... the s phase picks up a velocity message from the note ons out of stripnote and sends a message to the r phase? Then the t sends int of 0 message to the phasor~s, which retriggers them, and they in turn set the phase of the cycle~s?

The only thing I'm not sure about is why it needs the t object, it seems to work without it (i.e. just connecting the phasor~s to the r phase).

Anyway, yes, that does what I want, thanks for this!

kleine
Posts: 1854
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2001 11:46 am
Location: ableton
Contact:

Re: Trouble with detuning

Post by kleine » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:09 am

The phasor~ drives the cycle~'s phase from 0-1 with the given frequency, the t object (=trigger) just resets the phase to 0 with each note (if desired...)

timday
Posts: 569
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 1:02 pm

Re: Trouble with detuning

Post by timday » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:32 pm

Thanks, that's what I figured.

It's led me to think about phase management in synths in general....that approach might not work with a pitch envelope unless you retrigger at the point where the envelope reaches its sustain. Likewise if you have a pitch LFO with a mod envelope on it that makes it die away there's a good chance of it ending up out of phase. I guess they must retrigger at the sustain point or something?

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