SysEx (this is simply) I NEED...

Questions and discussion about building and using Max for Live devices
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minowak
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SysEx (this is simply) I NEED...

Post by minowak » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:14 pm

Hi

Im looking for simply device with supporting SysEx sending in real time. NEED HELP - PEOPLE, PLEASSSS!!!

WHATS WRONG WITH YOU ABLETON LIVE? Even Reaper support this...

chapelier fou
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Re: SysEx (this is simply) I NEED...

Post by chapelier fou » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:34 pm

Maxforlive supports sysex.
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
iMac 27" Retina i5 3,2 GHz OS 10.11.3 L10.0.1 M4L.

minowak
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Re: SysEx (this is simply) I NEED...

Post by minowak » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:09 am

chapelier fou wrote:Maxforlive supports sysex.

So, witch M4L Plugin can send Sysex in real time within Ableton works?

maky355
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Re: SysEx (this is simply) I NEED...

Post by maky355 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:38 pm

minowak wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:09 am
chapelier fou wrote:Maxforlive supports sysex.

So, witch M4L Plugin can send Sysex in real time within Ableton works?
Your question is extremely relative. There is no default M4l sysex patch/device which will send Sysex message and there is a reason for that.

Because every manufacturer have their own sysex nomenclature which can be found usually in specific device manual. Afaik there is no single plugin which will send some obscure generic sysex because it would be useless.

What you have to do is find exact value in device manual and then you program yourself a knob or a fader or simple selector in M4l and you have it.

If you want to find some examples (look for newer date) of free m4l patches sending sysex to some specific gear look here http://maxforlive.com/

You can download these devices, open them and inspect how other people did it and can copy their way.

I hope it helped.

Machinesworking
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Re: SysEx (this is simply) I NEED...

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:27 pm

maky355 wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:38 pm
minowak wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:09 am
chapelier fou wrote:Maxforlive supports sysex.

So, witch M4L Plugin can send Sysex in real time within Ableton works?
Your question is extremely relative. There is no default M4l sysex patch/device which will send Sysex message and there is a reason for that.

Because every manufacturer have their own sysex nomenclature which can be found usually in specific device manual. Afaik there is no single plugin which will send some obscure generic sysex because it would be useless.

What you have to do is find exact value in device manual and then you program yourself a knob or a fader or simple selector in M4l and you have it.

If you want to find some examples (look for newer date) of free m4l patches sending sysex to some specific gear look here http://maxforlive.com/

You can download these devices, open them and inspect how other people did it and can copy their way.

I hope it helped.
Yeah this is why Max 4 Live is useless in this situation.
In 99% of the cases where you're using SysEx as an end user you don't have any reason at all to know the code, at all.
In Logic, DP etc. I want to have the preset for an old analog or digital synths, or a modern DSI or Moog etc. actually in the song? Dump the patch on the hardware and DP Logic etc. record it in the track. Next time the track loads it assigns that patch whether it exists in that synth anymore or not.
The other case, the Xpander here doesn't do CC, but it does send SysEx for it's various features etc. so I can record that into the tracks. I'm absolutely certain DP and Logic don't have a list built into them with the SysEx codes for these synths, it's just recording that data and spitting it back out at the synths. That's all I want, simple.

People are making these little hardware specific Max patches for their synths, and that's cool, but I couldn't care less about a little GUI and list of patches for my hardware if I wanted to. I just want to be able to store a synth patch in Live as a Clip, without a max patch, without having to go into Max.

It reminds me of someone here talking about this, how Max was cool and all, but new features were going to be hindered by script kids thinking Max is the end all.. "You can do that in Max"...

hoffman2k
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Re: SysEx (this is simply) I NEED...

Post by hoffman2k » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:11 pm

As of 10.1, a fix to repeating CC's being filtered also means Sysex now properly works on a single track sending and receiving.

I already solved the storing, recording and importing of Sysex files as device presets and by extension as .als file with MIDI Routing already set op. I just need to implement a proper throttle for the player function. Which is a bit trickier than just delaying each individual byte or string it turns out. I suppose Logic/DP record to a timestamp which gives them the ideal speed for the hardware. I'm trying to reverse engineer the export options of MIDI-OX/Sysex-Librarian before I put my patch out there. I know you can brick a Moog if you don't get the Sysex playback speed right.

Machinesworking
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Re: SysEx (this is simply) I NEED...

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:28 pm

hoffman2k wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:11 pm
I suppose Logic/DP record to a timestamp which gives them the ideal speed for the hardware. I'm trying to reverse engineer the export options of MIDI-OX/Sysex-Librarian before I put my patch out there. I know you can brick a Moog if you don't get the Sysex playback speed right.
Thanks for working on this, and I'm really sorry you have to.
I know it's not a priority because I'm probably in the minority seeing the use for it, but it's still been a weird ride thinking Ableton at some point is going to add it in, and every upgrade cycle it just doesn't come..

I really do like working in Live, it's why these types of features interest me. Having a permanent document built into the song you're working with that patch in is such a great thing.

hoffman2k
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Re: SysEx (this is simply) I NEED...

Post by hoffman2k » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:31 pm

Machinesworking wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:28 pm
hoffman2k wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:11 pm
I suppose Logic/DP record to a timestamp which gives them the ideal speed for the hardware. I'm trying to reverse engineer the export options of MIDI-OX/Sysex-Librarian before I put my patch out there. I know you can brick a Moog if you don't get the Sysex playback speed right.
Thanks for working on this, and I'm really sorry you have to.
I know it's not a priority because I'm probably in the minority seeing the use for it, but it's still been a weird ride thinking Ableton at some point is going to add it in, and every upgrade cycle it just doesn't come..

I really do like working in Live, it's why these types of features interest me. Having a permanent document built into the song you're working with that patch in is such a great thing.
I don't mind. And its not said that Ableton won't support it native, it literally just started working. And incidentally, recording and playback of NRPN should now work without issue too. Trickle down MIDInomics. One more MIDI Message type to go... ;)

Another question about how Sysex dumps work on other DAWs. When you load a set with multiple Sysex that needs to play at the start, do you need to set an order for the files to load? Or does it follow track numbering perhaps?
Or is it not "user-proofed" in that if you were to load a Song dump on one track and a patch bank on another... You'd be confusing the shit out of your synth at your own risk.
At any rate, I can see why this isn't a thing to haphazardly add. Good thing I got a BCR2000 to experiment on, that thing just won't die.

hoffman2k
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Re: SysEx (this is simply) I NEED...

Post by hoffman2k » Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:46 pm

Nevermind, sorted it all out. You need to limit it to one device per track (or Rack Chain) anyway. Because some devices will output as they receive, which creates a feedback loop.
This should do the trick. As with all Sysex tools, be careful not to brick your devices ;)

http://covops.dreamhosters.com/uploads/Sysexy.amxd

hoffman2k
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Re: SysEx (this is simply) I NEED...

Post by hoffman2k » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:10 pm

Goodie, there's a way to save ports and channels in a preset too.
Add an External Instrument after the Sysex Player. Group both in a MIDI Effect Rack and save it. If Autoplay is active, it'll load a preset on your hardware as soon as you load it in Live. So you can even hotswap your Sysex banks/sounds.

chapelier fou
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Re: SysEx (this is simply) I NEED...

Post by chapelier fou » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:23 pm

Bookmarking this topic if you don't mind.
MacBook Pro 13" Retina i7 2.8 GHz OS 10.13, L10.0.1, M4L.
iMac 27" Retina i5 3,2 GHz OS 10.11.3 L10.0.1 M4L.

hoffman2k
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Re: SysEx (this is simply) I NEED...

Post by hoffman2k » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:43 pm

While it seems to work for most Sysex tests I've done so far, the playback of my patch is no match for C6 when it comes to SDS transfers of +1mb samples.
But neither is MIDI-OX. And saving a SDS in a .adv file is a waste of space and quickly adds to the size of a project.
Might work for the smaller stuff like a Volca Sample maybe. I suppose the ancient slow Akai's might work too.
Do the other DAW's handle SDS dumps ok? A quick test would be to send a loop from C6 and back.

hoffman2k
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Re: SysEx (this is simply) I NEED...

Post by hoffman2k » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:13 pm

This is why I love Max: No matter how clever it makes me feel to figure shit like this out, there's always that moment when you rediscover an object that was always there and does like 90% of what you wanted the whole patch to do. Which in turn makes me facepalm so damn hard, stars orbit my head like in Looney Toons.

Long story short, I forgot about the Seq object. Which records Sysex with its timing in ticks... :oops:
So basically everything from simple strings to SDS files of several megabytes should be fine.
And it also sorts real-time recording and playback of Sysex events like from the older hardware.
I'll see if I can sort exporting of Sysex files, since thats preferable to storing data in .adv files. But because of the Seq object, it can definitely be saved as .mid... So yeah, facepalm. But not in vain, Seq doesn't import .syx files and I sorted that at least with filein.

@minowak
Sorry for hijacking your thread mate, but as you may have gathered... Anything you want seems possible now.
But since there is no uniform way that Sysex works, you may need to specify what you want to do and which devices are involved.
I don't think its possible to make something that works for all scenarios, but its worth learning what the possible user cases are.

cskracer
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Re: SysEx (this is simply) I NEED...

Post by cskracer » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:46 am

hoffman2k wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:11 pm
As of 10.1, a fix to repeating CC's being filtered also means Sysex now properly works on a single track sending and receiving.
That's great news. Will have to go back and re-jig my Emu sampler device.

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