APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

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unaflux
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:04 pm

Re: APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

Post by unaflux » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:49 am

@jo
"what about if I MIDI_remap them on parameters like Clip Start, Clip End, Loop Start Position, Loop End, Clip Scrubbing, etc. ? For those controls the difference between controlling them through the Cue_Level Encoder instead of any other (Track or Device) Encoder it's huge. With 17 endless encoders can we really use only 1 for some parameters? For real???????"

YES, FOR REAL!!!!! :evil:

@drewbixcube
> why don't the endless encoders behave like endless encoders when automap is overridden?

because not all of them behave like truly endless encoders!!!
because live in the most important moment (i.e. when jumping from one parameter to another) sometimes doesn't send some parameters values to the encoders, sometimes (also when you're already controlling a parameter) doesn't send them in the right way/scaling.

> if I override the automap then adjust a mapped parameter with the mouse instead of the
> encoder, the led doesn't move and I have to use pick up/value scaling as if the encoder
> were a regular pan pot.

this happens also with the clip control params jo was talking about...

> With other endless encoders I've used, I've been able to adjust the
> parameter from the exact spot I left it with the mouse. Isn't this the point of using
> endless encoders?

clearly this IS the point!!!

> Is the encoder's functionality somehow tied in with the led ring?

when you jump between two controls the encoders receive (or better, 'should receive', because clearly this doesn't happens in Live for certain parameters)... the encoders receive the value of the control you are moving to. the led visualize/reflect the value the encoder receives from the software, and the value from which the encoder will start from when sending new control data. so YES, the encoder's functionality is somehow tied in with the led ring.

> If so, shouldn't Live
> still be able to output the knob's position when automap is overridden, even when a mapped > parameter is adjusted with a mouse?

YES, it definitely should. whenever you adjust a parameter with the mouse Live should send the value information to the encoder connected to that parameter. as said before, clearly this doesn't happens in Live for certain parameters.

@all
from the akai tips page
http://www.akaipro.com/tipsjun09
in the 'footswitch scene selection' paragraph, let's extract this:
"...you may want to use the [Cue Level] knob for this assignment, as it is the only knob that will behave as a truly endless encoder on the APC40"

SO, IT'S FOR REAL (17 endless encoders and only one one 'behave as a truly endless encoder')

I'm really sorry but I have to shout this:
IT'S A F'ING RIP OFF
YOU HAVE TO FIX THIS!!!

zoe

ctx
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 8:13 pm

Re: APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

Post by ctx » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:31 am

Akai has been doing this stupid shit with endless encoders that don't work like endless encoders since they released the MPD24, they love it this way for whatever reason. I wouldn't hold your breath for it to change.

jo_paglia
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:07 pm

Re: APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

Post by jo_paglia » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:25 am

> so YES, the encoder's functionality is somehow tied in with the led ring

the encoder's functionality is somehow tied to the led ring but
'how it is tied' is what matters the most :!:
I can think of different scenarios here:

1) endless encoder sending 0-127 data with control parameter receiving 0-127 data :)
[es. track control encoder on pan, device control encoder on most of device parameters]
2) endless encoder sending 0-127 data with control parameter without a prefixed range :x :evil:
[es. track or device control encoder on scene selection (when scenes are more than 128),
track or device control encoder on Clip Start, Clip End, Loop Start Position, Loop End
Clip (when the duration of the clip divided by the actual quantization setting it's
greater than 127)]
3) endless encoder sending -/+ data with control parameter receiving 0-127 data :wink:
[es. cue control encoder on cue volume]
4) endless encoder sending -/+ data with control parameter without a prefixed range :wink:
[es. cue control encoder on scene selection, cue control encoder on Clip Start, Clip
End, Loop Start Position, Loop End Clip, etc.]

Scenario n.1 works pretty well for most of the controls: :)
- it doesn't require any scaling/conversions/calculations
- the values sent by the parameter could be just echoed back to the APC to have the right led visualization of the controlled parameter.
- even if sending 0-127 values the fact of being endless encoders still avoids parameter jumps when passing from one control to another
SO, it's preferable most of the time (but not always!).

Scenario n.3 and n.4 work well for ALL the controls: :wink: 8)
- they require some scaling/conversions/calculations on the incoming data
(add or subtract from the actual value of the control in the software)
- they can require some scaling/conversions/calculations on the outgoing data
[if the range of the parameter it's not 0-127 (Scenario 4), the value of the
parameter has to be scaled to the 0-127 values visualized and 'understood' by the LEDs]
- I say 'can require some scaling/conversions/calculations on the outgoing data'
because the only encoder (Cue) that actually sends the -/+ kind of data doesn't have
LEDs so it doesn't require any outgoing data from the software AFAIK

The real problem/issue with APC/Live is Scenario n.2 :x :evil:
- Live SHOULD convert the 0-127 values coming from the encoder and the incoming data rate to -/+ direction/acceleration values.
- Live SHOULD scale/convert/calculate values. the value of the internal parameter has to be scaled to the 0-127 values going to the encoder, visualized and 'understood' by the LEDs
OR
(don't know if this is possible, we should know if this it's absolutely fixed in the hardware and there's no way to have an external control on it :?: ).
The APC encoder when required to control a parameter with a 'funky' range SHOULD automagically start sending -/+ values
Either way we go back to a situation similar to the one depicted by scenario n.4
and everything it's supposed to work well.


Jo

arcadekid
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:49 pm

Re: APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

Post by arcadekid » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:24 pm

all of the hardware encoders are endless encoders

they way live handles them may be a different story (MIDI 1-128)- but the hardware is an endless encoder

jo_paglia
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:07 pm

Re: APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

Post by jo_paglia » Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:32 pm

> all of the hardware encoders are endless encoders

TRUE, never said they weren't 8O
(every 'scenario' started with the words 'endless encoder')

> they way live handles them may be a different story (MIDI 1-128)

sure the way live handles them it's important...
it's the main point of my arguing :!:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there are two things that could be debated:
- the way live handles the data received from some encoders
- the way the APC sends data from some encoders
IMHO the solution for both is mostly in Ableton's hands, not in Akai's
the hardware is done and it's sloooowly reaching the customers,
the software v8 is already out but shouldn't be too hard
to put some corrections in some of the next 8.xx revisions,
also it's surely faster and simpler then building a new firmware.

I know for sure that the behavior of some of the APC controls
it's different in two different moments:
- when you first connect it via USB
- when Live initializes it after the APC it's selected as a control surface
So I guess that there could be ways of asking the APC
to send data differently from some encoders.
If there are...
then Live should use them anytime the controlled parameter requires it
If there aren't
then it's the way live handles the data received from some encoders
that should be corrected (or should I say debugged? )


just a few points:
1)
try MidiOX, MAX, Bome MT, or any other software that let's you
monitor the MIDI going from APC to Live and viceversa.
In hardware they all are endless encoders,
BUT,
what I'm saying it's that they send different data
(...doesn't mean they 'end' being 'endless' :-D )
and that sometimes the way this data is handled is just wrong!

2)
Midi works with values between 0-127
most of the times but not always...
(Pitch bend data has way more than 128 values...)

3)
Some parameters just can't work with just 0-127 values
Example:
You have a clip, let's say 16 bars.
You have quantization set to 1/16 of a bar.
16 * 16 means that the 'clip scrubbing' control
in this case has 256 possible steps.
In this case:
- If you use the Cue Encoder on this control
you can pass everyone of these steps.
- If you use a Track or Device Encoder on this control
you can't pass every step... (and the parameter starts from
whatever value the encoder was on before passing to clip control...
this means that if your encoder was in a central position, the led
pointing up is on, your scrubbing starts from the middle of the song)

the software maps the possible steps
with the possible control values (0-127 for track and device encoders).
This practically means that
- you can't pass every step
- the software will automatically jump some steps and you can do nothing about it
- the quantization parameter results in not being always considered...
this without even considering the fact that neither the software nor the hardware
has idea of which is your starting value... (try to manage the 'clip start' control,
let's say that this is set to 0.0.0 inside the related textfields, the led and the starting
value of the encoder should reflect this. just like when you jump between other parameters,
the encoder should know the value of the parameter you're going to control next.
isn't this one of the main selling points of having endless encoders?)


the software should
- know that the controlled parameter cannot be controlled/mapped with just 128 values
- initialize the encoder to the proper starting value and give an led feedback
- read/interpret the data coming from track or device encoders and convert it to values
similar to the ones directly received from the Cue Encoder
- use the converted values to control the parameter in the proper way
- give feedback of the updated parameter...
and so on



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Is anyone from Ableton willing to comment?


Thanks
Jo

thisistippex
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

Post by thisistippex » Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:34 pm

HI this is my first post although i have been reading for months, especially this thread as ive had my APC40 on backorder since early May, but today i finally got hold of it!!!

I must say I love it and im just getting it all setup the way i want for DJing with. ive searched all the threads but not found and answer to a few niggles I have. there probably beginners mistakes so im ready to be shot down in flames but....

I want to change the maximum level on the faders and the EQs i have setup, i know how to do it when mapping to a device normally, simply change the number in the max box in the midi mapping. but how do i do it for the premapped APC40 controlls?

is there a way to disable a button, for example stop all clips, i dont really want to asign it to something random, do i need Max for live to do that sort of thing?

is there a way to bring up different clip views from the one playing other than clicking on the clip with the mouse?

*scrunches up face, steps back and tentatively presses submit then wait for the noob backlash.

drewbixcube
Posts: 298
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:37 am

Re: APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

Post by drewbixcube » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:15 pm

thisistippex wrote:I want to change the maximum level on the faders and the EQs i have setup, i know how to do it when mapping to a device normally, simply change the number in the max box in the midi mapping. but how do i do it for the premapped APC40 controlls?
There may be a way to do it with Max, but out of the box - no. The only way is to re-map the device, which means you will no longer be able to bank the faders.
thisistippex wrote:is there a way to disable a button, for example stop all clips, i dont really want to asign it to something random, do i need Max for live to do that sort of thing?
I'm sure Max will help here too, but in the meantime you can set up a track with an empty audio effect rack and re-map the stop buttons to each of the macros. This way, the buttons are disabled from their normal function without being assigned to actually do anything... if that's what you're looking to do.
thisistippex wrote:is there a way to bring up different clip views from the one playing other than clicking on the clip with the mouse?
In v8.04, we can finally utilize "select on launch" from the Record/Launch preferences. Before this update, it didn't work via MIDI or the APC. While a clip is already playing is a different story methinks. Try messing around with the track selection and the clip/track button a bit.
thisistippex wrote:*scrunches up face, steps back and tentatively presses submit then wait for the noob backlash.
*whooo-pshhhh :P

thisistippex
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:24 pm

Re: APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

Post by thisistippex » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:30 pm

drewbixcube wrote:
thisistippex wrote:I want to change the maximum level on the faders and the EQs i have setup, i know how to do it when mapping to a device normally, simply change the number in the max box in the midi mapping. but how do i do it for the premapped APC40 controlls?
There may be a way to do it with Max, but out of the box - no. The only way is to re-map the device, which means you will no longer be able to bank the faders.
thisistippex wrote:is there a way to disable a button, for example stop all clips, i dont really want to asign it to something random, do i need Max for live to do that sort of thing?
I'm sure Max will help here too, but in the meantime you can set up a track with an empty audio effect rack and re-map the stop buttons to each of the macros. This way, the buttons are disabled from their normal function without being assigned to actually do anything... if that's what you're looking to do.
thisistippex wrote:is there a way to bring up different clip views from the one playing other than clicking on the clip with the mouse?
In v8.04, we can finally utilize "select on launch" from the Record/Launch preferences. Before this update, it didn't work via MIDI or the APC. While a clip is already playing is a different story methinks. Try messing around with the track selection and the clip/track button a bit.
thisistippex wrote:*scrunches up face, steps back and tentatively presses submit then wait for the noob backlash.
*whooo-pshhhh :P
Much thanks for that, Ive figured that if if group my effects and include the EQ3, I can then assign the first three macros to the EQ pots and then i get the option to control the min and max. this means i can then still bank through the rest of my effects, and obviously still have a fair few macros left for other stuff.

I think i an def going to have to go with resigning the button i want to disable to dead space, not ideal but i guess it ll do the job.

Ohh thanks for that regarding select on start i will look into if i have that update and get it if not, that should do what i want i think.

cheers

4.33
Posts: 1198
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:49 pm
Location: Moscow

Re: APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

Post by 4.33 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:34 am

drewbixcube wrote:
thisistippex wrote:I want to change the maximum level on the faders and the EQs i have setup, i know how to do it when mapping to a device normally, simply change the number in the max box in the midi mapping. but how do i do it for the premapped APC40 controlls?
There may be a way to do it with Max, but out of the box - no. The only way is to re-map the device, which means you will no longer be able to bank the faders.

here's a workaround for ya - just stick a utility plugin with -6db setting to each track
this will preserve the maximum channel level at 0db and the faders will remain banked

Hermanus
Posts: 1648
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:47 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

Post by Hermanus » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:45 pm

nice tip!
Thanks for sharing

Furland
Posts: 165
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:15 pm
Location: Scandinavia

Re: APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

Post by Furland » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:58 pm

4.33 wrote:here's a workaround for ya - just stick a utility plugin with -6db setting to each track
this will preserve the maximum channel level at 0db and the faders will remain banked
It's always the simplest things we don't think of! Great tip! :-)

enable
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:03 am

Re: APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

Post by enable » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:26 am

anyone know the upgrade price from apc version of live to suite 8 or live 8?

thanks

Tagor
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:18 am

Re: APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

Post by Tagor » Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:09 pm

Is it possible to switcht Track-Selection with Track-Activation ?
I would prefer the big ones for activation. Anybody know that ?

thx in advance

Tagor
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:18 am

Re: APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

Post by Tagor » Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:43 am

let me guess: No Tagor - M4L will do that!

ok another question:

When i remap the mute and record arm buttons i loose visual feedback means:
lights will not switch on/off[/b]

can somebody please give me a hint on this ?

halley
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:48 am

Re: APC 40 FAQs, features and questions

Post by halley » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:45 pm

@tagor
for the Selection-Activation buttons swap here's the hint:
take any midi program that let you do midi mappings... (MidiTranslator, MidiOX, MAX, whatever).
if you're on windows you'll also need a midi virtual cable (MidiYoke).
the path of the controls normally is APC > Live > APC.
this should become APC > MidiMapperSoftware > VirtualCable > Live > VirtualCable > APC
now on the mapping.
map every incoming note 52 to note 51 and viceversa
(51 is the note for the track activation buttons, 52 is the note for the track selection buttons).
this should be done in both directions APC to Live, Live to APC.
surely with M4L everything should become smoother and simpler.


for the mute and record arm buttons...
i think the feedback thing depends mainly on which function are you remapping them to...
and if people at ableton are willing to give optimized feedback
also for user-created midi mappings to APC owners.


fra'

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