Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

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italicdrones
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Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

Post by italicdrones » Mon May 04, 2009 2:03 am

Noob here. How do you loop audio in a single audio track so that the release is not cut off when the loop restarts? This should be pretty simple but I cant find controls for it anywhere. thanks.

oddstep
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Re: Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

Post by oddstep » Mon May 04, 2009 5:39 pm

I think I would achieve this using a sampler/simpler - rather than using an audio clip. Create midi track- drag simplar/sampler onto track, drag clip into sample window, create midiclip with a middle C triggering the instrument. Experiment with loop, polyphony and ADSR settings untill it works.

italicdrones
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Re: Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

Post by italicdrones » Tue May 05, 2009 6:31 am

That's quite a bit! I cant believe a program like ableton doesn't make this an easy option. Its such a simple musical idea. I think the only program you can do it in without hassle is Sonar. Everywhere else it seems you have to make two audio tracks for one loop, frikin' crazy.

gzifcak
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Re: Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

Post by gzifcak » Tue May 05, 2009 10:02 pm

well, technically you're talking about more than just looping. a loop is a monophonic piece of audio that just repeats from the beginning when it gets to the end. what you want to do is literally play more than one copy of the audio, since you want the end to continue along with the beginning. if you think about trying to do this with an actual tape loop, it would be kind of difficult.

samplers are good for this, because they're polyphonic. the simplest way i can imagine is using a sampler to trigger the audio in one-shot mode, then trigger it again when you want it to start again. some samplers have "crossfade looping" which would also accomplish what you're talking about.

that said, it might be a nice feature built into the clip functionality: a line you can draw to crossfade.

jj0b
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Re: Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

Post by jj0b » Wed May 06, 2009 4:22 pm

When you say you don't want the release cut off do you mean that your clip has more audio than what you are looping and that you want the start of the part after the loop superimposed on the start of the loop after the first run through?

There is no built in ability to do this but it could be a cool feature for loops that are rendered with time based effects on them like reverb or delay.

To do this I have always used two loops and a follow action. The first loop is only played once when the loop is triggered. The second loop is the same except that it also has the tail of the end of the loop superimposed at the start.

To transition out of the loop I would make a third loop that just contains the tail.
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garyboozy
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Re: Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

Post by garyboozy » Wed May 06, 2009 10:20 pm

There is no built in ability to do this but it could be a cool feature for loops that are rendered with time based effects on them like reverb or delay.
not true - it already exists:

Image

garyboozy
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Re: Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

Post by garyboozy » Wed May 06, 2009 10:23 pm

Render as Loop If this is activated, Live will create a sample that can be used as a
loop. For example, suppose your Live Set uses a delay effect. If Render as Loop is on,
Live will go through the rendering process twice: The first pass will not actually write
samples to disk, but add the specified delay effect. As the second pass starts writing
audio to disk, it will include the delay tail resulting from the first pass.

jj0b
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Re: Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

Post by jj0b » Wed May 06, 2009 10:57 pm

garyboozy wrote:
There is no built in ability to do this but it could be a cool feature for loops that are rendered with time based effects on them like reverb or delay.
not true - it already exists:

Image
Yes, this is what I use to make the second of the loops I refered to. I would make one without using 'render as loop' as the initial loop and one with the tail on the front ('render as loop' on). In most cases it hasn't made sense for me to have the tail the first time through the loop, hence I use the follow action to switch after the first loop length.
jj0b wrote:you want the start of the part after the loop superimposed on the start of the loop after the first run through?
This is what I meant was not built in, the part about the superimposed tail not showing up on the first loop.

Basically you would need to have the option with each audio clip of having a different initial loop and then one that would loop forever thereafter. really isn't neccessary though as the same can be done with a small bit of work and follow actions.
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Re: Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

Post by garyboozy » Wed May 06, 2009 11:23 pm

coo

tbh, i dunno wtf the OP is on about. just threw that in there, just in case 8)

Dexes
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Re: Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

Post by Dexes » Thu May 07, 2009 12:23 pm

you could simply render it to 2 loops length have 1.1.1 as staring point, and 2.1.1 as the beginning of the loop
When you launch the clip it stars at 1.1.1 plays 2 bars and is then sent back to 2.1.1 repeating only the second bar which has the release of the first bar in it.

Only minor downside is when watching the display above the fader that tells you how often the loop has been played you have to remember to add 1 for the first bar.
+ you'd still need a second loop with only the release when you want to stop the loop.

electropoet
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Re: Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

Post by electropoet » Wed May 13, 2009 7:44 pm

italicdrones wrote:That's quite a bit! I cant believe a program like ableton doesn't make this an easy option. Its such a simple musical idea. I think the only program you can do it in without hassle is Sonar. Everywhere else it seems you have to make two audio tracks for one loop, frikin' crazy.
Audio Loopers don't do this and quite frankly you obviously don't understand what a hard disk recorder does. No hard disk recorder can do what you ask (not even Sonar). If you are asking for a looper to start a loop and then when it goes to repeat (loop), sound like a loop which is about to happen, but has not yet happened...well...that will require an act from God or a time machine.

There are many work arounds. You must experiment, but don't slam Ableton Live for not performing the impossible. Next you'll be complaining it doesn't automatically generate pieces of music which you've thought about but never actually got around to composing.

italicdrones
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Re: Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

Post by italicdrones » Wed May 13, 2009 10:18 pm

electropoet wrote: Audio Loopers don't do this and quite frankly you obviously don't understand what a hard disk recorder does. No hard disk recorder can do what you ask (not even Sonar). If you are asking for a looper to start a loop and then when it goes to repeat (loop), sound like a loop which is about to happen, but has not yet happened...well...that will require an act from God or a time machine.

There are many work arounds. You must experiment, but don't slam Ableton Live for not performing the impossible. Next you'll be complaining it doesn't automatically generate pieces of music which you've thought about but never actually got around to composing.
You can do it with Sonar. It asks you something like "blend audio" when you cut off the tail of a "loop" with another. Im not trying to slam Ableton, I just think its odd how you have to go through this abstract method to do something very simple and musical. I dont really know what a hard disk recorder does, I assume it records,.. how is that involved with looping? Enlighten me.

sleeping
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Re: Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

Post by sleeping » Mon May 18, 2009 1:00 pm

electropoet wrote: Audio Loopers don't do this and quite frankly you obviously don't understand what a hard disk recorder does. No hard disk recorder can do what you ask (not even Sonar). If you are asking for a looper to start a loop and then when it goes to repeat (loop), sound like a loop which is about to happen, but has not yet happened...well...that will require an act from God or a time machine.
electropoet-

I direct you to the following quote from a SOS review:

"Sometimes, however hard you try, there's just no good loop point in a sample. This is where crossfade looping, which helps disguise awkward joins, comes in handy. The A5000 offers a choice of three crossfade curves, and you can set a percentage of the loop to be crossfaded, plus whether the crossfade area will derive from the sustain or release portion of the sample."

FYI this is re a 10-yr old, HARDWARE sampler. I hate to date myself like this, but I remembered the feature as one of the selling points of the unit when I bought it (gulp) new.

Point is, what italicdrones is looking for shouldn't take an act of God or time travel.

I am also new to Ableton & new to the forums, & I agree that this a function Live ought to have. I've just started working with the program, and it's my first big hangup. Given the live performance & loop focus of the program, it's surprising.

I found other posts here in the forums regarding this issue...from 2006! (Search for the "Tail Marker" post in the "Features Wishlist" forum.) In that it suggested that the limitation of one clip playing at a time per track ("single audio stream" I think its referred to) was why Live couldn't do it.

3 years later, surely there's a way? It might seem minor (or impossible) to others but this is something I run into all the time. For me, it would be a big strike against Live if they haven't figured it out yet.

And, electropoet- you mention "there are many workarounds"- please let us know! Being new to the program, I hope there are workarounds...which is why I came to the forum...

Setting up a soft sampler makes it a MIDI clip & adds CPU load, & running multiple tracks or different versions of the clip is awkward. Is there some way to do it with warp marker placement?

electropoet
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Re: Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

Post by electropoet » Tue May 19, 2009 1:52 pm

What you are talking about is something that is inherently a problem with looping audio...always has been...always will be. You want perfect loops every time...there more to it than that. A hard disk looper like ableton only knows what you throw at it...it does not cross fade (yet)...it doesn't not change the sound source like a sampler and then extent the release...like the piece of audio you just recorded is a sample, inside a sampler...and you affecting it like it synth patch.

Looping is frequently problematic. It often takes good technique to stay on beat and get loops to repeat in a manner that doesn't give itself away as a loop.

I'll give a common example of a work around, as they are many...and it very tedious to discuss on a web board...would be easier to demo in real life. Say I am playing guitar with a lot of delay...I start to record a loop at the beginning of the next 4 bar interval...I'm not playing now...but begin playing when the loop starts and play and record for 4 bars. When that loops starts back...it won't sound right. Why? Because the loop is simply going to play back exactly what it heard. Unfortunately...by the time I got to the end of the 4 bar loop...a lot of delay feedback had built-up...but when the loop went to repeat..it started back where their was no feedback and the loop is not seemless. (The same thing could apply for synth patch releases, reverb, you name it).

Well...how do I fix this. A simple fix...is to start again...and this time play the loop twice over an 8 bar period...start like before...record the first 4 bars...then break the next 4 bars into a seperate loop. As you can see...this loop WILL begin with all the feedback from the delay happening in the beginning of the loop...therefore, when this loop repeats...its is going to sound much more seemless. It is a trick I use all the time.

I hope this makes sense. My point has been that Ableton Live does not perform the miraculous...but if you understand why something is happening...then it becomes clear how to work around to get what you want.

electropoet
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Re: Looping audio without release cutoff. Possible?

Post by electropoet » Tue May 19, 2009 1:59 pm

sleeping wrote:
electropoet wrote: Audio Loopers don't do this and quite frankly you obviously don't understand what a hard disk recorder does. No hard disk recorder can do what you ask (not even Sonar). If you are asking for a looper to start a loop and then when it goes to repeat (loop), sound like a loop which is about to happen, but has not yet happened...well...that will require an act from God or a time machine.
electropoet-

I direct you to the following quote from a SOS review:

"Sometimes, however hard you try, there's just no good loop point in a sample. This is where crossfade looping, which helps disguise awkward joins, comes in handy. The A5000 offers a choice of three crossfade curves, and you can set a percentage of the loop to be crossfaded, plus whether the crossfade area will derive from the sustain or release portion of the sample."

FYI this is re a 10-yr old, HARDWARE sampler. I hate to date myself like this, but I remembered the feature as one of the selling points of the unit when I bought it (gulp) new.

Point is, what italicdrones is looking for shouldn't take an act of God or time travel.

I am also new to Ableton & new to the forums, & I agree that this a function Live ought to have. I've just started working with the program, and it's my first big hangup. Given the live performance & loop focus of the program, it's surprising.

I found other posts here in the forums regarding this issue...from 2006! (Search for the "Tail Marker" post in the "Features Wishlist" forum.) In that it suggested that the limitation of one clip playing at a time per track ("single audio stream" I think its referred to) was why Live couldn't do it.

3 years later, surely there's a way? It might seem minor (or impossible) to others but this is something I run into all the time. For me, it would be a big strike against Live if they haven't figured it out yet.

And, electropoet- you mention "there are many workarounds"- please let us know! Being new to the program, I hope there are workarounds...which is why I came to the forum...

Setting up a soft sampler makes it a MIDI clip & adds CPU load, & running multiple tracks or different versions of the clip is awkward. Is there some way to do it with warp marker placement?
Yes...my first sampler was an Akai S2000...and talking about loop points and crossfades is not the same thing if I understand what the OP was complaining about. I'm sure hearing an audio example of a loop that didn't 'take' would be the easiest way to get on the same page...but I'm assuming you want to use live as a sampler, I guess. Samplers can and do take pieces of audio and essentially turn them into synth patches which can then be edited using ASDR envelopes...but I know of no DAW that treats all of its audio like that...and frankly find it funny that you are at this point demanding from ableton...throw your sample into sampler if you want to effect it like that...there are other ways to get seemless loops. Finally...just to be fair...i'm not saying this will never happen...but right now thats simply not how live, or sonar, or logic, or performer, or reason, or pro tools, or even acid works.

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