Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

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H20nly
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Re: Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

Post by H20nly » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:21 pm

michaellpenman wrote: It you figure stuff out on your own you will gain a understanding of why something does or does not work..........
This is a very true statement, but this guy asked for help. Why would you go out of your way to NOT help? You stopped digging through posts just to knock down someone that is obviously new to this. I mean you actually took time out to do this. You could have been a little more constructive with your typing. What if dude is like 15? All this software, drivers, OS, hardware and the art of mixing itself is overwhelming.. regardless of age. He said "I've only had Ableton a few days" he's feeling around and seeing what his options are... You could have suggested tutorials or the manual without telling him not to post.

I'm glad I didn't get that kind of shithead response when I first posted here.


Here's a shout out to MartinOM28V that didn't act like an elitist on my first post... Peace YO! I've come a long way... Thanks

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Re: Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

Post by michaellpenman » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:57 pm

H20 , if you read what i wrote i gave a great book, the dance manual, i learnt from this book and i have passed it on to several friends and they loved it.
This is better than something of the web.
It runs you through synths, mixing, effects arrangements.
Now tell how have i not giving good advice.

Here is the second edition of the book
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Dance- ... 0240521077

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Re: Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

Post by michaellpenman » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:09 pm

H20nly wrote:
michaellpenman wrote:Thanks sage, yeah mixing is a art form not something you can learn in a day or a year or 10 years, it takes time and development.
So you're saying come back in ten years? Live is on rev 8 so by that logic even the Live users using say Live 2 or 3 have to come back in 3 or 4 years. WTF?

Sage wrote:EQ doesn't solve anything
*cough* BULLSHIT


Sage wrote:I'd recommend a course over a book and don't think anyone should ever try mixing until they have had a go in a proper studio as 99% of the time
Yeah because studios are in every town just waiting for people to come in so they can teach them.
:idea: Why don't you show him!
Sage wrote:so many lessons can be learnt so quickly in that environment.
I'll give you that.

Why do people always bitch... yeah i meant when you have done 10 year mixing come back, thats exactly what i meant your retard, i said it take at least 10 years to become pro at it... Which i'm implying there no need to rush things. You cant just pick up a guitar and turn out a steve fucking vai solo in 10 seconds.

what Sage and I are simply trying to do is enlightening the guy to the options of the world. It took me years to realize that a course is better, one there are tones of free one. You are thought by people in the business and you have your fellow student who you can learn of.
Doing a course or studio or reading a book are long term things and rather than just give the guy the answer which is a short term answer which will not solve the whole problem.

Sorry if i went around explain this in a backwards way mate but you will learn a lot from it.

So a little advice on strings, listen to tracks you like with strings. Anaylsis then see what you think sounds good about them.
Do they cut through the mix of are they mellow.
Do they sit in the back or are they up front
are the simple or complected

When listen write down what you hear in these types of question.
Then take a sample of the strings ( if it is of the net like yotube etc you can use soundflower)
now try and find a patch that sounds like it.
play the melody or program it.
Then add the effect you think they used.

and do this again and again
and in time you will understand how people make there sound.
also you can apply this to every genre every instrument and every arrangement

and sorry again if i seemed out of line, i was trying to help

H20nly
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Re: Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

Post by H20nly » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:16 pm

michaellpenman wrote:Learn the program before posting

C'mon man? How is he supposed to take that?

Besides is there a chapter in that book called "Making your Bass and Strings Sound Better in Ableton"? His question was pretty specific.

I make what is essentially hybrid hip hop with Ableton Live. If the second suggestion I ever got (after learn the software) was read the Dance Manual I still wouldn't have read that shit. (Sounds like lessons on how to do the Foxtrot and Samba). You can read a book from cover to cover its the application and trial and error that makes you learn. I got a book called The Art of Mixing. Neither Cubase/Live or that book made complete sense as a stand alone. It was reading the knowledge and applying it that started to make it all become clear. Thats a process. I'm still figuring out how to do things in Live that I've known how to do in Cubase and vice versa. He is starting out. Have you forgotten what that was like? I'm guessing that things were a little different when you did... little more hardware... a little less software, drivers, OS etc etc.

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Re: Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

Post by H20nly » Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:37 pm

smallclone wrote: I'm not after creating dance music/ house/ beats - more Ambient, slow miserabalist, instrumental, progressive stuff really. So it would be a nice crisp Bass Guitar sound and a nice Cello sound or E-Bow substitute.

I've mucked around with EQ's for both instruments but to no avail. Any suggestions?
smallclone If you're even still with us...

michaellpenman's last post was a lot more on point. It could just be that the sounds/samples that you're using suck to begin with. If you start with shit yeah you can grow flowers but if you start with something better you may just get something more.

You need to be more specific about instruments you're using to trigger the bass and string sounds so that we can better understand and elaborate on your options. Don't use your EQ to boost too much (if at all). Use it mainly to subtract. Which EQ are you using? 3 bands will not give you as much room to play as 8 (obviously).

Maybe try sampling some records or waves. There is a tutorial in Live I think on how to use Impulse (Making Beats with Live???). I was just messing with the first track I ever did in Live last night (maybe for this reason). It was done with Impulse about 3 years ago. You can isolate a single bass or violin note from an audio sample to make your own sample bites and then just drag, drop and trigger them in Impulse...

Holler back if you're still around...

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Re: Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

Post by michaellpenman » Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:02 pm

Ok yeah h2o yeah sorry i get you,
i mean what i said i just never said it correctly.
So say he asks a question but doesnt understand the answer...
so i said learn the program which is so easy with ableton they give you in depth interactive lessons.
In doing this you can better understand a discussion. etc Then that makes it easier to post.
I know i was vague but i meant what i said
i hope this clears it up.

If you want more tips just ask clone...
i can send links to books and sites etc

smallclone
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Re: Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

Post by smallclone » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:22 am

webslave wrote:
smallclone wrote:Hi,

"I've only had Ableton a few days and am teaching myself really. I have version 8

I've done a few compositions but I just cannot seem to get a good Bass sound or a good string sound."
Hi,

Ignore the idiot on about mixing - that has nothing to do with it (well maybe a bit when it comes to bass). I'm going to presume you're using 8 suite which comes with various instruments, such as Tension, but does not have any good string sounds. In general Live comes with some good dance and electronic based instruments but lacks good solid acoustic instruments, like piano, strings, etc.

Other applications come with a good choice of acoustic instruments that are usable, if you're on a Mac Garageband has some good ones built in which you can slave or export across to Live. Are you PC or Mac based? I'm sure some folks here could recommend some good plugins for strings and bass in both cases. I'm a bass player and have guitar rig plugged into live that I use even for some dance stuff I do but I really could do with some good strings.....
Cheers.

I'm on a PC. I'm getting the hang of it more now. Some of the comments above helped thanks. I didn't apreciate being told to go away and read a book that's all.

I find the acoustic piano sound ok actually. Its just bass and strings that are lacking somewhat.

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Re: Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

Post by dinaiz » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:07 pm

Do you have EIC 2 as well ? It has some decent strings in my opinion ... Also, try to have a look into "Intrument racks" in the browser cause the sounds in there are already processed, so it's much easier to use them if you're not really familiar with effects

About all the fighting posts above, I think most people here are musicians, want to talk about music and are not really into these arguments. So that would be nice from you guys to think about other people reading the threads who find one useful post for 10 posts totally unrelated to music ... :x. I think that would save everybody's time.

H20nly
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Re: Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

Post by H20nly » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:29 pm

smallclone wrote:I find the acoustic piano sound ok actually. Its just bass and strings that are lacking somewhat.
Glad to see that you gave the forum another shot. I think sometimes WE get over zealous during our flame wars and forget to look at the simple fundamental that this forum was probably created for... which is to help one another.

Anyway. I haven't been too impressed with any of the bass guitar sounds either. I have a real bass sitting next to my PC so I almost always just grab that and record it as audio. I am down 100% with what dinaiz said above... the part about strings that is.
dinaiz wrote:Do you have EIC 2 as well ? It has some decent strings in my opinion ... Also, try to have a look into "Intrument racks" in the browser cause the sounds in there are already processed, so it's much easier to use them if you're not really familiar with effects
the rest sounds like soapbox utterance. not sure he read all the posts in this thread. I think some peeps were more interested in helping you than may be obvious from afar.

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Re: Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

Post by dinaiz » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:39 pm

H20nly wrote:the rest sounds like soapbox utterance. not sure he read all the posts in this thread. I think some peeps were more interested in helping you than may be obvious from afar.


Yeah... but I'm sure you see my point :-)

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Re: Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

Post by michaellpenman » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:52 pm

Read the post it may be a argument but it was about music, we got on the same wavelength.

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Re: Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

Post by WidowTwanky » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:02 pm

Bass is always tricky. To find a tone that really works depends on what else is going on in the piece in terms of frequency/harmonic content, as well as the bass 'role' in the piece. It is incredibly easy to arrive at a pile of mud with electronically produced sounds since the overtones are always limited compared to live instruments. You really have three choices: thinning out the bottom end of other instruments, re-orchestrating, or finding a timbre that works for the piece. I sometimes find that lowered samples of other instruments harps/guitars etc work when bass samples land me in the mud.

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Re: Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

Post by hurlingdervish » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:42 pm

i thought forums were about helping and learning from people....if not what the fuck good are they

if you want "pad" type strings then go to your volume or filter envelope and turn up the attack,and add some reverb.

cut off the low frequencies with a highpass filter.

but if your working with multisampled orchestra sounds, those almost always sound bad

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Re: Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

Post by michaellpenman » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:58 pm

Maybe man you can try recording some strings,
what i do is write the strings midi, then have a live player play over it.
If this sounds good i can give you mic techniques and places to find players

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Re: Bass and Strings soudn awful. Any tips?

Post by dinaiz » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:34 pm

WidowTwanky wrote:since the overtones are always limited compared to live instruments.
What do you mean?

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