He does indeed deserve praise and I agree with you that if others recorded their methods, ideas, and tips visually it would be very interesting for all of us.mrlovatt wrote:Bruce that video was spot on.. seeing it visually made much more sence!! i cant thank you enough (and of course Chris for the concept).. i think now we should start recording sum videos of us mixing.. so we can pick up some tips tricks ect..
that would be really cool!
How To Warp A Whole Track with relative Success
-
Chris Cowie
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:46 am
- Location: Somewhere In Europe
- Contact:
I've been working with this for a little while now and I have an alternative simpler method. It's similar, with a few variations:
- Guessing the BPM in the master is an extra step. There is no need to guess the master BPM with this method.
- When converting MP3 to wav - which, if we are DJing EDM, is mainly the case - warping is more troublesome.
So pinpointing the warp marker to the "1" .. then jumping right to the middle or the end to find your next warp marker spot wont work. By the time you look far enough into the future, the downbeat is far enough off that you wont know where to lock your next marker. This method works with that.
- In EDM (house, trance, breaks, techno etc) there are certain divisions in the file that are key to mixing. This method takes that into account and gives you guides to work with.
- With this method you can begin warping before the waveform draws. Often you can have a perfectly warped track before it even finishes drawing, and in some cases without ever hearing the track at all.
- This method is fast and routine.
SUPSTERs METHOD
(Note: enhancing and normalizing volumes should be done in your wav editor before you start)
1 - Drag your track to Track 1 in the arrange view. You will see the waveform begin to draw. Click the Warp button.
2 - Zero closely in to the "1" marker. Click and drag it so it nails the attack of the beat dead on. You cant be too precise. Now drag the left bracket so it sits right on the "1"
3 - Set your Master Tempo to about 130 or so. Start the track playing, with the metronome. The waveform will still be drawing. Thats fine.
4 - Now ... go to your "2" marker. It should be on or near a beat. Most likely it will be obvious where it should be. WITHOUT DOUBLE CLICKING AND CREATING A WARP MARKER, drag the "2" so it nails the attack of that beat.
Congratulations. Look to the left in the Clip properties box. This should show you a very close estimate of your original BPM for the track. Double check this by starting the file again and listening to see that that one bar section is dead on with the metronome.
3 - Now move over to the "5" marker. (all the while the file is playing with the metronome ... keep going). Check it. Is it on the attack of the beat? if not, make a quick adjustment. DO NOT create a warp marker.
4 - Check the "9" marker. Tweak if necessary. Again, DO NOT create a warp marker. You are simply fine tuning your beats at this point.
5 - Now zoom out and look at the waveform. There should be something significant happening at 17, 25, 33, 41 etc. Somewhere this track is going to "drop"- bass will kick in, main theme etc. Find it.
6 - Go to that spot. Often it is at "33". Zoom right in and check it. Is the marker on that downbeat? If not, adjust this .. NAIL it ... then SET a warp marker here.
Now you should have a marker at "1", and at "33", or wherever it is you determined the drop was. Now you have a perfectly warped beginning, with a guide that will help you with your phrasing and timing.
7 - At this point your metronome should be clicking along and you should be hearing around bar 65 or so. Zoom out and look toward the middle of the track, around bars 129, 133, 141 etc.
Is there something significant here? A break, a spike in the wavform that shows something new has changed? Zoom in there.
Find a marker that looks like a good place to lock down, and zoom tight, nail it, SET another marker. This makes sure the middle of the track is tight.
8 - Now ... you can start skipping forward thru the track to save time. Do this by holding CTRL, then clicking above your clip on the arrange view. This will set the play marker which will serve as a scrub head so you can scrub forward thru the file. Listen for the metronome to flam.
If it does, zoom into that area in the Clip view and check your marker. Does it still look like it is on the attack of the downbeat? In some cases it is hard to tell in the middle of the track .. there is a lot more waveform info that can obscure the downbeat. If so dont sweat it. You will nail it at the end.
9 - Now focus on the final rideout at the end of the track. You will see a point (after the last break) where the track climaxes and begins to ride out. Zoom in on this point. Find the downbeat. Nail the attack, SET your warp marker.
10 - Now go ALL the way fwd toward the end of the track. Find a nice, clear downbeat on a major subdivision (start of 32 bar, 16 bar, 8 bar section) ... zoom in ... drag it so it nails the attack, and SET the marker.
You can set this last marker or two right on beats at the edge of a major change, again - like where the bass drops out, or just a really good place to start your next mix. Again, its good to have this guide ... if you are going to set markers, set them where they serve a double duty.
11 -Done. But ALWAYS click the little SAVE button to save the work in your asd file!!! Ok now u are done. You can double check the file against another track you know is dead on if you want to. Some tracks are funny ... so ALL tracks should be checked and practiced with before you perform live with it.
All together you should have about 4 or 5 yellow warp markers on the track. The whole process can take anywhere from 2 minutes, to five or ten minutes per track in the really difficult cases. But this method is very fast and accurate, it focuses on the beginning and the end (where your mixing takes place), and makes a solid, mixable track.
- Guessing the BPM in the master is an extra step. There is no need to guess the master BPM with this method.
- When converting MP3 to wav - which, if we are DJing EDM, is mainly the case - warping is more troublesome.
So pinpointing the warp marker to the "1" .. then jumping right to the middle or the end to find your next warp marker spot wont work. By the time you look far enough into the future, the downbeat is far enough off that you wont know where to lock your next marker. This method works with that.
- In EDM (house, trance, breaks, techno etc) there are certain divisions in the file that are key to mixing. This method takes that into account and gives you guides to work with.
- With this method you can begin warping before the waveform draws. Often you can have a perfectly warped track before it even finishes drawing, and in some cases without ever hearing the track at all.
- This method is fast and routine.
SUPSTERs METHOD
(Note: enhancing and normalizing volumes should be done in your wav editor before you start)
1 - Drag your track to Track 1 in the arrange view. You will see the waveform begin to draw. Click the Warp button.
2 - Zero closely in to the "1" marker. Click and drag it so it nails the attack of the beat dead on. You cant be too precise. Now drag the left bracket so it sits right on the "1"
3 - Set your Master Tempo to about 130 or so. Start the track playing, with the metronome. The waveform will still be drawing. Thats fine.
4 - Now ... go to your "2" marker. It should be on or near a beat. Most likely it will be obvious where it should be. WITHOUT DOUBLE CLICKING AND CREATING A WARP MARKER, drag the "2" so it nails the attack of that beat.
Congratulations. Look to the left in the Clip properties box. This should show you a very close estimate of your original BPM for the track. Double check this by starting the file again and listening to see that that one bar section is dead on with the metronome.
3 - Now move over to the "5" marker. (all the while the file is playing with the metronome ... keep going). Check it. Is it on the attack of the beat? if not, make a quick adjustment. DO NOT create a warp marker.
4 - Check the "9" marker. Tweak if necessary. Again, DO NOT create a warp marker. You are simply fine tuning your beats at this point.
5 - Now zoom out and look at the waveform. There should be something significant happening at 17, 25, 33, 41 etc. Somewhere this track is going to "drop"- bass will kick in, main theme etc. Find it.
6 - Go to that spot. Often it is at "33". Zoom right in and check it. Is the marker on that downbeat? If not, adjust this .. NAIL it ... then SET a warp marker here.
Now you should have a marker at "1", and at "33", or wherever it is you determined the drop was. Now you have a perfectly warped beginning, with a guide that will help you with your phrasing and timing.
7 - At this point your metronome should be clicking along and you should be hearing around bar 65 or so. Zoom out and look toward the middle of the track, around bars 129, 133, 141 etc.
Is there something significant here? A break, a spike in the wavform that shows something new has changed? Zoom in there.
Find a marker that looks like a good place to lock down, and zoom tight, nail it, SET another marker. This makes sure the middle of the track is tight.
8 - Now ... you can start skipping forward thru the track to save time. Do this by holding CTRL, then clicking above your clip on the arrange view. This will set the play marker which will serve as a scrub head so you can scrub forward thru the file. Listen for the metronome to flam.
If it does, zoom into that area in the Clip view and check your marker. Does it still look like it is on the attack of the downbeat? In some cases it is hard to tell in the middle of the track .. there is a lot more waveform info that can obscure the downbeat. If so dont sweat it. You will nail it at the end.
9 - Now focus on the final rideout at the end of the track. You will see a point (after the last break) where the track climaxes and begins to ride out. Zoom in on this point. Find the downbeat. Nail the attack, SET your warp marker.
10 - Now go ALL the way fwd toward the end of the track. Find a nice, clear downbeat on a major subdivision (start of 32 bar, 16 bar, 8 bar section) ... zoom in ... drag it so it nails the attack, and SET the marker.
You can set this last marker or two right on beats at the edge of a major change, again - like where the bass drops out, or just a really good place to start your next mix. Again, its good to have this guide ... if you are going to set markers, set them where they serve a double duty.
11 -Done. But ALWAYS click the little SAVE button to save the work in your asd file!!! Ok now u are done. You can double check the file against another track you know is dead on if you want to. Some tracks are funny ... so ALL tracks should be checked and practiced with before you perform live with it.
All together you should have about 4 or 5 yellow warp markers on the track. The whole process can take anywhere from 2 minutes, to five or ten minutes per track in the really difficult cases. But this method is very fast and accurate, it focuses on the beginning and the end (where your mixing takes place), and makes a solid, mixable track.
-
Chris Cowie
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:46 am
- Location: Somewhere In Europe
- Contact:
Hi,
I wouldnt be so sure your method is faster. I agree that you dont need to guess the tempo. But how difficult is it to guess the tempo.....
Above I mentioned to Bruce that he could have moved his marker later in the track. But I think Bruce is quite new to Live and he did an excellent job considering his experience with the software. Although the video he made was longer than a couple of minutes this was obviously intentional for demonstration purposes. I reckon he's got it down to 2 minutes or less which by all accounts is pretty fast.
Sorry to be so blunt but I thought your post had a few contradictions and your method isnt really any different and it isnt faster. Perhaps if you had just posted that there is no need to guess the tempo then that would have been a nice tip for some. However, I say that its a good thing to guess the tempo and the more you do it the faster you become at it. After all it isnt difficult.
Maybe in a future version Ableton may come up with Autowarping?
Cheers
Chris
I wouldnt be so sure your method is faster. I agree that you dont need to guess the tempo. But how difficult is it to guess the tempo.....
As Bruce has shown he has 1 yellow marker and thats all I have in 95% of the tracks I warp. You have 4 or 5 which takes more time.All together you should have about 4 or 5 yellow warp markers on the track.
2 minutes is fine but I can assure you I have it down to about 1 minute or less and I move 1 marker at the end of the song. Its not a race and I think we all know that you can start warping before the waveform is drawn. Also Im sure many can warp a track visually (I can) but the purpose of this thread was for newcomers to either Ableton Live or newcomers to music making.The whole process can take anywhere from 2 minutes, to five or ten minutes per track in the really difficult cases.
Are you saying that your track is not in time in the middle? I think the point with Live is that you can drop loops at any point in a song so therefor it would make sense to have the track warped and in time for the whole song. I must also point out that the warping from Right to Left is extremely accurate.But this method is very fast and accurate, it focuses on the beginning and the end (where your mixing takes place), and makes a solid, mixable track.
Dont normalise because normalising messes with the sound. Use Volume or Gain and if you must do some pre-production if its an older record.....But that has all been said in teh earlier posts anyway.(Note: enhancing and normalizing volumes should be done in your wav editor before you start)
Above I mentioned to Bruce that he could have moved his marker later in the track. But I think Bruce is quite new to Live and he did an excellent job considering his experience with the software. Although the video he made was longer than a couple of minutes this was obviously intentional for demonstration purposes. I reckon he's got it down to 2 minutes or less which by all accounts is pretty fast.
Sorry to be so blunt but I thought your post had a few contradictions and your method isnt really any different and it isnt faster. Perhaps if you had just posted that there is no need to guess the tempo then that would have been a nice tip for some. However, I say that its a good thing to guess the tempo and the more you do it the faster you become at it. After all it isnt difficult.
Maybe in a future version Ableton may come up with Autowarping?
Cheers
Chris
Well ..
- By normalizing I mean BBE ---> Waves L2 maxmizing ... not true normalization. I keep the threshold fairly hi not to kill all the dynamics, and put the headroom at -1. Makes things nice and punchy and crisp, and all the tracks are volume matched.
Which is the main thing. However people want to do that is fine as long as they dont fudge up the tracks doing it
- This is only a variation on your method - which helped alot, thx. Problems I ran into doing a straight run toward the far side of the track and pulling everything in one shot:
a. Waveforms are complex in the middle. So you cant always see, and its not always easy to hear, where the kick is exactly.
b. In the real world I tried pulling in one shot like that from the end, and the tracks were still not right. Whether this is because the majoritly of my tracks are MP3 to wav conversions, dunno, but it wasnt working.
By working your way to the right - doubling your steps each time - you are making SURE it is all locked down. You're still only setting a couple of more markers, but its worth it - things have to be right - especially at the beginning and end, because you cant nudge or brake these tracks once you commit to a mix
You also get the benefit of having visual markers at your mix points, which comes in handy when your eyes are bugging out at all these tiny clips
er ... as far as the tempo ... why would you bother to guess at it when all ya have to do is just pull the "2" marker in place?? Its too easy
Hey you are the guy that started me warping these things right, thanks again ... just trying to help by giving some alternative methods (its not a science, its an art ...whatever works for ppl)
- By normalizing I mean BBE ---> Waves L2 maxmizing ... not true normalization. I keep the threshold fairly hi not to kill all the dynamics, and put the headroom at -1. Makes things nice and punchy and crisp, and all the tracks are volume matched.
Which is the main thing. However people want to do that is fine as long as they dont fudge up the tracks doing it
- This is only a variation on your method - which helped alot, thx. Problems I ran into doing a straight run toward the far side of the track and pulling everything in one shot:
a. Waveforms are complex in the middle. So you cant always see, and its not always easy to hear, where the kick is exactly.
b. In the real world I tried pulling in one shot like that from the end, and the tracks were still not right. Whether this is because the majoritly of my tracks are MP3 to wav conversions, dunno, but it wasnt working.
By working your way to the right - doubling your steps each time - you are making SURE it is all locked down. You're still only setting a couple of more markers, but its worth it - things have to be right - especially at the beginning and end, because you cant nudge or brake these tracks once you commit to a mix
You also get the benefit of having visual markers at your mix points, which comes in handy when your eyes are bugging out at all these tiny clips
er ... as far as the tempo ... why would you bother to guess at it when all ya have to do is just pull the "2" marker in place?? Its too easy
Hey you are the guy that started me warping these things right, thanks again ... just trying to help by giving some alternative methods (its not a science, its an art ...whatever works for ppl)
Its not that warp markers are bad ... you just dont want to set too many of them if you can avoid it.
- its a waste of time - you only need a few to make sure the entire track tight
- as chris mentioned earlier, you take the chance of screwing with the 'swing' or feel of the track when you set too many
- if you set tons of warp markers, and then for some reason you need to make adjustments to the track, you need to undo too many markers to make the change
- its a waste of time - you only need a few to make sure the entire track tight
- as chris mentioned earlier, you take the chance of screwing with the 'swing' or feel of the track when you set too many
- if you set tons of warp markers, and then for some reason you need to make adjustments to the track, you need to undo too many markers to make the change
Su[ster
you make no sence?????? chris pointed out you only posted the same as he had said much earlier in the thread.
Are you serious you dont need to find out the tempo before warping? cant you work out the tempo or something.
and in case you didnt know mp3s can cause probs.
you havent read this thread and you neither had the decency to thank bruce for his video.
ps could you have been any more disrespectful to chris you made its soond like he isnt in the real world. Check the guys production catalog!!
im sure your method works btw but man if ever i have seen someone try to steal credit then you win the award.
BRUCE GREAT VIDEO MAN. NICE TO SEE SOMEONE DOING SOMETHING COOL FOR PEOPLE ON THE FORUM. I LEARNED SOMETHING FROM YOUR VIDEO. PROPS + PROPS TO YOU
you make no sence?????? chris pointed out you only posted the same as he had said much earlier in the thread.
Are you serious you dont need to find out the tempo before warping? cant you work out the tempo or something.
and in case you didnt know mp3s can cause probs.
you havent read this thread and you neither had the decency to thank bruce for his video.
ps could you have been any more disrespectful to chris you made its soond like he isnt in the real world. Check the guys production catalog!!
im sure your method works btw but man if ever i have seen someone try to steal credit then you win the award.
BRUCE GREAT VIDEO MAN. NICE TO SEE SOMEONE DOING SOMETHING COOL FOR PEOPLE ON THE FORUM. I LEARNED SOMETHING FROM YOUR VIDEO. PROPS + PROPS TO YOU
[ overly sarasitic reply edited 
]
Look:
The method was not working 100% of the time for some people, including myself. So I posted an alternative. Thats what this board is for, sharing tips.
No offense, but if anyone is that wrapped up in what happens on this board, for any reason ...
... you need to get a life. For real.
(and yes: nice video Bruce)
]Look:
The method was not working 100% of the time for some people, including myself. So I posted an alternative. Thats what this board is for, sharing tips.
No offense, but if anyone is that wrapped up in what happens on this board, for any reason ...
... you need to get a life. For real.
(and yes: nice video Bruce)
Last edited by supster on Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PS. By the way, I just looked at you site Chris (at 16 bits prompting). Nice! I'm familiar with some of your tracks, great stuff
... again thx for the tips, sorry if some of you took it the wrong way - or I could have worded my post differently to not offend (?) - but - again, just trying to help out and share the tips.
(this post brought to you totally Sarcasm Free (tm)
... again thx for the tips, sorry if some of you took it the wrong way - or I could have worded my post differently to not offend (?) - but - again, just trying to help out and share the tips.
(this post brought to you totally Sarcasm Free (tm)
I'm wondering if anyone out there has any tips for determining a track's time signature?
I've had a horrible time trying to warp certain tracks (a NIN song, and a couple of Underworld tracks) and have ended up playing with the time signature setting in frustration, when poof! Suddenly Everything lines up, and life gets a bit easier. I should point out that I have no musical training, and am teaching myself as I go. My background is live audio, and engineering, so I am definitely an old dog trying to learn new tricks.
I've had a horrible time trying to warp certain tracks (a NIN song, and a couple of Underworld tracks) and have ended up playing with the time signature setting in frustration, when poof! Suddenly Everything lines up, and life gets a bit easier. I should point out that I have no musical training, and am teaching myself as I go. My background is live audio, and engineering, so I am definitely an old dog trying to learn new tricks.
I've had great success with autowarp for all kinds of tracks, including rock, dance, pop, just about anything.
1) Remaster. Punchier tracks autowarp SO much better. I use a Live Audio Effects Group to do this... no expensive/unstable third party plug-ins required. It also levels the volumes so tracks flow better when deejaying. No more need for headphones.
2) I add 4 seconds of silence at the beginning of every track before warping. Using Live's 'Edit' button makes this quick and easy. This 'breathing space' seems to let autowarp work better, especially with tracks that don't begin on the first downbeat.
3) Live almost always 'guesses' the tempo correctly when I hit the warp button. No need to 'tap' anything. Then it's just a matter of identifying the first downbeat, 'Set 1.1.1 here', 'Warp From Here', done. If it doesn't work, clear it with another warp button, and hit 'Warp From Here' again.
4) I don't really care how many yellow warp markers autowarp uses. It's irrelevant. If it's a tight constant-tempo computer-sequenced track, Live won't put many warp markers in. An old funk track will need them.
This is just a technique, but it works most of the time. I can warp tracks faster than realtime this way, but use whatever works for you.
1) Remaster. Punchier tracks autowarp SO much better. I use a Live Audio Effects Group to do this... no expensive/unstable third party plug-ins required. It also levels the volumes so tracks flow better when deejaying. No more need for headphones.
2) I add 4 seconds of silence at the beginning of every track before warping. Using Live's 'Edit' button makes this quick and easy. This 'breathing space' seems to let autowarp work better, especially with tracks that don't begin on the first downbeat.
3) Live almost always 'guesses' the tempo correctly when I hit the warp button. No need to 'tap' anything. Then it's just a matter of identifying the first downbeat, 'Set 1.1.1 here', 'Warp From Here', done. If it doesn't work, clear it with another warp button, and hit 'Warp From Here' again.
4) I don't really care how many yellow warp markers autowarp uses. It's irrelevant. If it's a tight constant-tempo computer-sequenced track, Live won't put many warp markers in. An old funk track will need them.
This is just a technique, but it works most of the time. I can warp tracks faster than realtime this way, but use whatever works for you.
explain please
hi guys...excuse me hambone i don't understad very well your methode..can you explain it exactly please?? where is autowarping in live?
ok...until now i understood this...Chris read this please and reply if you can
1) 1 yellow marker at first beat is enough...
2)i can adjust a marker (not yellow) at the end of the track and often the tempo is right during the entire track ? is this your "RIGHT TO LEFT" ??
thanks
ok...until now i understood this...Chris read this please and reply if you can
1) 1 yellow marker at first beat is enough...
2)i can adjust a marker (not yellow) at the end of the track and often the tempo is right during the entire track ? is this your "RIGHT TO LEFT" ??
thanks
A very easy way to auto warp
Hey guys,
I dunno if you're all using the latest version of Live. If you are, then you probably know this, if you aren't or are new, (though i'm only a couple of months old) then here's a system that makes warping whole tracks a doddle.
This works for pretty much all 4/4 music. I have warped hundreds of trakcs now, and can get a track warped nearly always under 2 mins.
Here we go.
1. Drop your track into a session view slot. Let Live analyze it.
2. In the drop down menu under the 'warp' button choose 're-pitch' ( ihave now got my global settings set to repitch through preferences)
3. Move the 1.1.1 marker to the first beat. Aslo set the left side of the loop brace to 1.1.1
4. Scroll through the track, extending the loop brace as you go until you get to the 33rd marker, ensuring that the markers don't veer drastically. (your loop marker is now 32 bars long)
5. Double click the 33 loop marker and line it up. (this will perfectly align all the previous marks backwards to your last mark
6. click on the loop bracket so it turns black.
7. Hold down shift, hit the up arrow, and your loop marker jumps to the next 32 bar marker.
8. repeat steps 5 thru 7 till you get to the end of the track.
9. make sure you save the warp marker positions, (hit the 'save' jsut above the gain control in the cklip view sample box)
Job's a good un.
The first few tracks will take you a bit longer, but when you find your own rythm it seriously shifts you along. Personally i keep one hand on the mouse, the other hand covering the shift button and up arrow and it's pretty quick.
The one thign i have foudn out about live is there's a million ways to use it, find something you're comfy with and do it..
Dizzy
I dunno if you're all using the latest version of Live. If you are, then you probably know this, if you aren't or are new, (though i'm only a couple of months old) then here's a system that makes warping whole tracks a doddle.
This works for pretty much all 4/4 music. I have warped hundreds of trakcs now, and can get a track warped nearly always under 2 mins.
Here we go.
1. Drop your track into a session view slot. Let Live analyze it.
2. In the drop down menu under the 'warp' button choose 're-pitch' ( ihave now got my global settings set to repitch through preferences)
3. Move the 1.1.1 marker to the first beat. Aslo set the left side of the loop brace to 1.1.1
4. Scroll through the track, extending the loop brace as you go until you get to the 33rd marker, ensuring that the markers don't veer drastically. (your loop marker is now 32 bars long)
5. Double click the 33 loop marker and line it up. (this will perfectly align all the previous marks backwards to your last mark
6. click on the loop bracket so it turns black.
7. Hold down shift, hit the up arrow, and your loop marker jumps to the next 32 bar marker.
8. repeat steps 5 thru 7 till you get to the end of the track.
9. make sure you save the warp marker positions, (hit the 'save' jsut above the gain control in the cklip view sample box)
Job's a good un.
The first few tracks will take you a bit longer, but when you find your own rythm it seriously shifts you along. Personally i keep one hand on the mouse, the other hand covering the shift button and up arrow and it's pretty quick.
The one thign i have foudn out about live is there's a million ways to use it, find something you're comfy with and do it..
Dizzy