patch / program changes don't work properly

[drb]

Patch / program changes don't work properly: (v8)

If you just play through a set it works, but if you jump around, program changes are not sent.

An example:
I have a MIDI clip on track 1 with program change 1 that starts on measure 1
I have a MIDI clip on track 2 with program change 2 that starts on measure 8

If I play this it will play patch 1 then switch to 2.
If after measure 8, I jump back to measure 1 - without restarting -it will never switch back to patch one, even though that's the clip playing.

That means you can never jump around in time in a set and have program changes follow the clips, unless the midi clips are all on the same track.

[zalo]

im confused, is this in session view or arrangement?

are the tracks both routed to the same hardware?

when playing the first track again are you relaunching it or has it been playing constantly?

[drb]

im confused, is this in session view or arrangement?

Arrangement.

are the tracks both routed to the same hardware?

Yes, a hardware synth.

when playing the first track again are you relaunching it or has it been playing constantly?

[zalo]

tested it, looks like you need to do all of your program changes from a single midi track, everything else can be on separate tracks and it will work just fine

[drb]

tested it, looks like you need to do all of your program changes from a single midi track, everything else can be on separate tracks and it will work just fine

That doesn't seem like a very poor way for this to (not) work? It does to me.

Some people put smaller songs into big sets, like this:

song1.track1
song1.track1
song1.track1
.................song2.track1
.................song2.track2
.................song2.track3
.................................song3.track1
.................................song3.track2
.................................song3.track3

Not possible if you have MIDI tracks in there, with program changes. I see this as a major design flaw.

Don't you?

[zalo]

at no point was i saying this couldnt be made better, just until it is, this will work

also, if you play out of session view this isnt a problem, my live set is only midi files with program changes attached, i have never had a problem with it

[8O]

The program change will only be sent out when you launch the clip, not dependent on your subsequent focus. That's the way it works.

[zalo]

The program change will only be sent out when you launch the clip, not dependent on your subsequent focus. That's the way it works.

the thing is though, that if you have two 8 bar midi clips with program changes on a single track, you can jump back and forth to the middle of the clips(bar 4 and bar 12) and it will send the message every time

but when you pull the second clip into another track this doesnt happen anymore

[8O]

That's because on a single track only one clip can play at a time, so that each clip is being launched when you jump back and forth.

It will work exactly the same on multiple tracks if you launch each clip each time, not just change focus/mute/activate/whatever....

[drb]

That's because on a single track only one clip can play at a time, so that each clip is being launched when you jump back and forth.

It will work exactly the same on multiple tracks if you launch each clip each time, not just change focus/mute/activate/whatever....

80, please read the first message again. It's in arrangement page, not session view.
Layout is like this:




Clip A has program change of 10
Clip B has a program change of 11
Both tracks are routed to the same MIDI port and MIDI channel.

If you hit play this will send 10, then 11.
But, if you use scrub or markers to jump back, it will never send change of 10 again
In fact it will not send the 11 again either.

It will *only* send program changes when simply played and run.
Jumping around, the patch changes don't get sent!

If you loop this section, it should toggle back and forth between patch 10 and patch 11. It does not.
It will send 10, send 11, and loop back IGNORING the patch changes from then on.

There is no logic is it working this way.

If I move both clips to the same track, then it works as expected, but there is no reason that should be needed.

[8O]

Sorry, yes, read too fast, am used to just using it in session view... Understood...

I'm guessing it's because it only sends out the Program Change when something new happens per track. That means on track 1, once you've sent out the Program Change info, there's nothing new (i.e. different to the last value) for it to send, so it never sends again... on that track. Looks like the tracks are not aware of what the other ones are sending, so they don't know if their Program Change is different to what another track sent in the meantime.

If you look at it like that, then I guess the behaviour is consistent.

Dunno if it's optimal behaviour though - I'm assuming that there's a design reason for it being like this... just checked on Live 7.0.18 and it appears to behave in the same way...

[drb]

If you look at it like that, then I guess the behaviour is consistent.

Consistent? I suppose, but it's still poor design.

Program changes should happen in a timeline, left to right. Whenever a MIDI clip is triggered, a patch change should be sent.
If another clip was played a moment later, with a patch change assigned, that should be sent to the MIDI device.

Simple as that.

There is a workaround, but no reason it should be needed.

[8O]

If you look at it like that, then I guess the behaviour is consistent.

Consistent? I don't see it. Poor, yes.

Program changes should happen in a timeline. Whenever a MIDI clip is triggered, a patch change should be sent.
If another clip was played a moment later, with a patch change assigned, that should be sent to the MIDI device.

Simple as that.

I meant consistent behaviour as in 100% repeatable according to the explanation I posted. Whether it falls short of what you want is a different question... but I agree it seems there's definitely scope for tracks knowing that another track may be sending on the same midi channel to the same midi device.

As a workaround, you could maybe add an empty midi clip sending Program Change = none, before or after the real clips... that should trick Live into resending each Program Change again.

[drb]

As a workaround, you could maybe add an empty midi clip sending Program Change = none, before or after the real clips... that should trick Live into resending each Program Change again.

Did you try this? I don't think it will work.

[8O]

Tried it briefly in 7.0.18, seemed to work fine for looping in arrangement.