How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

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flavor32
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How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

Post by flavor32 » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:26 pm

Hi. I've been perusing the manual's Sampler section and think this may be a function of the MIDI tab but not sure (maybe release velocity?). The idea is that I want the Sampler to play a sample when I press a midi key (NOTE ON- easy to do of course). Then I want to trigger a a different sample when releasing the key (NOTE OFF).

Example: pressing the key makes the sound of a piano and releasing the key makes the sound of that piano's hammer and key "plunking" back up as I release the key. Anyone got a tip on this? This would save me mucho experiment, trial and error time!

Thanks in advance!!

yur2die4
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Re: How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

Post by yur2die4 » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:47 pm

Use an instrument rack. you can stack two racks. one has the standard note-on instrument.

The other rack would have the Note Length effect from the MIDI fx tab.

The rest should figure itself out for you :D

flavor32
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Re: How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

Post by flavor32 » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:52 pm

yur2die4 wrote:Use an instrument rack. you can stack two racks. one has the standard note-on instrument.

The other rack would have the Note Length effect from the MIDI fx tab.

The rest should figure itself out for you :D
That sounds good :-) However, I need to try to see if there's a way to do this all in one instance of Sampler. I want to release a library I'm working on and having this happen in one sampler instrument could help me migrate the patch to other sampler instruments. Any ideas?

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Re: How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

Post by yur2die4 » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:02 pm

Sorry, I can only find a release for looped material. And even that is a continuation from whatever point the loop is at as you release the key, and not a trigger from a new point upon key release : /

flavor32
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Re: How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

Post by flavor32 » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:05 pm

Yeah, tricky. I'm hoping there's a way to use the "sample select" parameter either in the midi controls tab or the AUX of the mod tab. I'm noodling with it. Still open to suggestions/discoveries!

flavor32
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Re: How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

Post by flavor32 » Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:56 pm

Well, I've discovered I can get a different sample to trigger if I use the Note Length MIDI effects plug in set to "note off" before one of 2 samplers in a rack but I'd love to figure out a way to do it in Sampler by itself! Quite the puzzle...

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Re: How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

Post by garyboozy » Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:37 am

not possible without the Note Length device. after the note-on, you need another midi note to be triggered at note-off, and Sampler can't create its own midi note events.

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Re: How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

Post by flavor32 » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:25 am

garyboozy wrote:not possible without the Note Length device. after the note-on, you need another midi note to be triggered at note-off, and Sampler can't create its own midi note events.
Yeah, tricky. I know there are a couple of Korg workstation keyboards and the Yamaha Motif that have this feature built in. I'm hoping there's some magic hidden combo setting that someone figures out or maybe I could have one long sample with the "clunk" sound at the end and I can set the note on to trigger the first part of the sample and loop, then have the release address looping the end of the sample. I dunno, I'm still noodling :-) If all else fails, at least I've set up a rack with two samplers and the Note Length effect before one of them. That's working but not ideal.

Thanks for the input thus far!

theophilus
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Re: How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

Post by theophilus » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:27 am

old samplers did stuff like this using a 'release loop'... sample was set up like this...

|initial transient|sustain loop|release loop|

the sustain loop would play while the note was held down, and then when the note off was received (the release) it would play through the rest
of its sustain loop and then play the release loop while it decayed. But that method doesn't really work unless the sustain loop is really a sustain loop; i'm not sure if there's a way to tell Sampler to jump to the release part on release. Actually, I looked it up - this is in page 417 of the english manual installed with 8.1.1. If you enable a sustain loop, you can have a release sample or loop (doesn't have to loop), but it looks like it has to finish the sustain loop first.

This is really the normal way it's done. I should note that I had a demo of some of the sampletekk pianos (which load into kontakt), and they implement the release samplers with separate layers. So does the freeware sonart piano IIRC; in fact, I just checked to be sure, and so does the large 3G grand piano included with Live's own EIC2. They did it exactly as described, with the note length device. So if that's how they did it, they must think it's the best/only way as well.

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Re: How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

Post by theophilus » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:34 am

sorry, just realized - most of that was already said.

but... was thinking, and realized you can put more than one sample on a note.
In other words, you can load multiple zones right into the sampler on the zone tab.
just assign the regular sample and the release sample on the same key.
On the 'regular' sample, set it to 0 release (instant).
On the 'release' sample, add a small section of silence at the beginning, set the sustain loop to sustain the silence, then set release mode to just enabled, and have the rest of the sample be the release. I think it would work.

Major disadvantage is that there's no easy to way to control the volume of the separate 'release layer' i think... it would be set at the sample level instead of the patch level, so if someone thought it had too much pedal sound, major pain to lower it. With the separate sampler, you just lower the output for that second sampler, and you're done.

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Re: How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

Post by yur2die4 » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:39 am

Clever find with the bit of silence!! I was trying to figure out how to use velocity zones with no luck. hah

theophilus
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Re: How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

Post by theophilus » Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:49 pm

thanks... a little sampler abuse is never a bad thing :)

flavor32
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Re: How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

Post by flavor32 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:00 pm

theophilus wrote:sorry, just realized - most of that was already said.

but... was thinking, and realized you can put more than one sample on a note.
In other words, you can load multiple zones right into the sampler on the zone tab.
just assign the regular sample and the release sample on the same key.
On the 'regular' sample, set it to 0 release (instant).
On the 'release' sample, add a small section of silence at the beginning, set the sustain loop to sustain the silence, then set release mode to just enabled, and have the rest of the sample be the release. I think it would work.

Major disadvantage is that there's no easy to way to control the volume of the separate 'release layer' i think... it would be set at the sample level instead of the patch level, so if someone thought it had too much pedal sound, major pain to lower it. With the separate sampler, you just lower the output for that second sampler, and you're done.

Thanks for that, Theophilus! That seems close to what I was saying I may need to do but explains it well :-) I'll give it a run and try to report back. If anyone comes up with another option, feel free to offer it up here!
McKay Garner
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Mixing, Production, Composition
Some solo works at: http://soundcloud.com/mckaygarner
San Francisco, Los Angeles, Anywhere

flavor32
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Re: How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

Post by flavor32 » Wed May 26, 2010 2:18 am

UPDATE:

I was able to try this finally today and it actually works quite well!. Additionally, you CAN change the volume of each layer. As you click on each sample layer in the left of the zone window, it actually gives you individual settings for each layer of samples in the Sampler instrument window! This means without using an instrument rack, I can create Sampler patches that have multiple layers with different samples triggered on note on and note off/release (using a sample recording that has both desired sounds in one audio file)! One can actually adjust the volume of each sample layer individually (among other parameters). Thanks for the amazing tip, theophilus!


theophilus wrote:sorry, just realized - most of that was already said.

but... was thinking, and realized you can put more than one sample on a note.
In other words, you can load multiple zones right into the sampler on the zone tab.
just assign the regular sample and the release sample on the same key.
On the 'regular' sample, set it to 0 release (instant).
On the 'release' sample, add a small section of silence at the beginning, set the sustain loop to sustain the silence, then set release mode to just enabled, and have the rest of the sample be the release. I think it would work.

Major disadvantage is that there's no easy to way to control the volume of the separate 'release layer' i think... it would be set at the sample level instead of the patch level, so if someone thought it had too much pedal sound, major pain to lower it. With the separate sampler, you just lower the output for that second sampler, and you're done.
McKay Garner
http://www.mckaygarner.com
Mixing, Production, Composition
Some solo works at: http://soundcloud.com/mckaygarner
San Francisco, Los Angeles, Anywhere

g.mazel
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Re: How to have Sampler trigger a different sample on NOTE OFF?

Post by g.mazel » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:03 am

Make two tracks, 1 for each sample. In one of the tracks, drop in a note length midi effect and set it's trigger field to note off.

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