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 Post subject: 3/3 time signature
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:27 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:27 pm
Posts: 25
About tempo and time signature...why on earth is there no division possibility for 3 and 12 etc...it's just 4/8/16 so any polyrithmical stuff would not work?
Gr,

Andreas


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 Post subject: Re: 3/3 time signature
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:10 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:57 am
Posts: 678
Location: Hamburg
Uh... are you serious about that? How would a 3/3 time signature make any sense?

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 Post subject: Re: 3/3 time signature
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:15 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Posts: 4481
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature


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 Post subject: Re: 3/3 time signature
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:25 pm 

Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:57 am
Posts: 678
Location: Hamburg
@yur2die4:
What did you want to tell us by copypasting a link to the wikipedia article?

I haven't heard of any X/3 or X/12 metrum. And wikipedia doesn't seem to know about it either. Or did I miss the point in doppio's request?

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 Post subject: Re: 3/3 time signature
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:32 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Posts: 4481
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
I'm following up your response with the reason why those sigs would not make sense. If he reads the article, he will have a better understanding of what the numbers of a time signature represent, therefore allowing him to discover ways to make his situation work the way he intends. We are all after making something work with our imaginations needs. We just need to understand the tools for making it happen :)


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 Post subject: Re: 3/3 time signature
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:22 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:42 pm
Posts: 9088
Location: seattle
"the point in doppio's request" is that it doesn't make any sense

there is no such thing as a 1/3 note

(that was @ mpgk)


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 Post subject: Re: 3/3 time signature
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:18 am 

Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:57 am
Posts: 678
Location: Hamburg
Oh, there are 1/3 notes - commonly written down as half note triplets.
But just thinking about fitting 12 sixteenth-notes into a 9/12 bar makes my head hurt.

To make polyrhythmical stuff 99.9% of your listeners won't get, 4/4 and eight triplets can actually suffice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu-tRXgOrdg

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 Post subject: Re: 3/3 time signature
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:20 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:42 pm
Posts: 9088
Location: seattle
i'm not talking about triplets

i'm talking about the fact that the time signature doesn't exist


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 Post subject: Re: 3/3 time signature
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:49 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23576
Location: SF, CA
I'm stumped on this one, why wouldn't it exist? Live won't let you set it.

:?

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 Post subject: Re: 3/3 time signature
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:09 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Posts: 4481
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
The top number is where all the action is. The bottom number almost doesn't matter. Except for when it comes to transcription. Even then, the 4, 8, 16 are there for your convenience. Once you've decided on a sig, the nuances of a groove come from the duration of the notes used in the piece. It seems kind of pointless to make a difficult-to-transcribe note-length the basis of your piece. That is like making the basis for your LEGO creation the most rare piece in your set. I'm not saying it is not do-able, I'm not saying you should never try it, but I am saying it will be more trouble than it is worth unless you are seeking to do something backwardsly challenging. But then, if you're looking for a challenge, why use a music program at all? :P

Edit: As an added note, what does frustrate me with this method of transcription (i mean, being as primitive as it is, right?) is the oddness involved in flipping from one time sig to the other. IF infact you were able to use the note value more flexibly, you could more easily blend a 4/4 track with a 12/8 track without the remainder beats fucking up your groove.


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 Post subject: Re: 3/3 time signature
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:28 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Posts: 13140
This topic brought a smile to my blasted features.
I tried a quick explanation but my brain rebelled

but the easiest clue is probably here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note_value

notice the lack of a "Thirdle" between the Minim and the Crotchet
and yes, British education will do that for you.
I still prefer the daft old names

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 Post subject: Re: 3/3 time signature
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:42 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23576
Location: SF, CA
yur2die4 - funny how sometimes the answer is "try it and you'll see why it hurts."

so is it to say that the convention for writing beats is to use "divide by two" note values in conjunction with half notes to build note lengths. so, note lengths are based on powers of two.

something along those lines?

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I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"


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 Post subject: Re: 3/3 time signature
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:58 pm 

Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:02 am
Posts: 4481
Location: Menasha, Wisconsin
It all comes down to beats really. On the top is the count of beats. On the bottom is the method for counting beats.

If you have 4/4, you have 4 beats. If you have 12/8 you have 12 beats. If you have 27/2 you have 27 beats. All of which are 'per measure'

The latter number is simply what constitutes as a 'beat length' in your piece.

In 4/4, your 4 beats are each, lets look at the bottom, quarter notes. So each measure or bar, should add up to 4 quarter notes. When writing within the bar, your writing is divided/added/multiplied so you have the total length within a bar of 'one whole note' or 'four quarter notes'.

In 12/8, a full bar would be equal to the duration of 12 eighth notes. Which ends up actually being the length of one and a half whole notes. so there ends up being a difference in the length of 'a bar' when using the grid system that Ableton Live uses. (go ahead and try it, set Live to 12/8, double click a new midi clip, and compare its length/structure to that of a 4/4 :) )

As for 27/2. You have a really screwed up length of 27 beats. There could be all kinds of weird swings/triplets/anything you imagine in there. But still, the total for one whole bar ends up being 27 half-notes (musically). It still just comes down to the type of symbol you feel most comfortable writing with. In this case, it would take 13 and a half whole notes, to even get one full bar/measure.


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 Post subject: Re: 3/3 time signature
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:10 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:19 pm
Posts: 23576
Location: SF, CA
yeah, I was taught in second grade that the top number is what beat gets the count, the bottom number is how many beats per measure. have I ever really applied it? nope.
:oops:

sometimes I get crazy and use 3/4, motherfarkers!!!! then I go back to 4/4 and forget to reset the time sig and it takes me 45 minutes to realize why I can't warp anything.

thanks for the tips, still seeking that simple explanation. I believe it, but you know you understand something when you can boil it down to a really simple explanation.

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oddstep wrote:
I agree with all of this. I'm just bored of writing "its music, just listen and trust your judgement"


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 Post subject: Re: 3/3 time signature
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:07 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:42 pm
Posts: 9088
Location: seattle
Tone Deft wrote:
yeah, I was taught in second grade that the top number is what beat gets the count, the bottom number is how many beats per measure. have I ever really applied it? nope.
:oops:



good thing you never applied that, because it's backwards

;)


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