Using The Compressor To Limit A DJ Mix

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KD
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Using The Compressor To Limit A DJ Mix

Post by KD » Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:28 pm

I have Ableton Live 2.1.2 Delta - the version I got free with my M-Audio Audiophile soundcard. While it doesn't have all the latest features, it still let's you do enough to do a basic DJ Mix.

The problem I have is that I want to emulate the dip on a DJ Mixer cross-fader when I have 2 tracks playing together. I want to do this by putting the Compressor plug-in on the Master channel so that when 2 tracks are mixing, some compression is applied to limit the level on the Master out.

At the moment I have to set the master to -6db to get no clipping in the mix sections when I render to disk. This leaves the areas of the mix where there is only 1 track playing a bit quiet. I can normalize the mix in sound forge but it's still lacking punch.

Can anybody advise me of the appropriate values to set the threshold, ratio, attack and release on the compressor as I don't know much about it to be honest.

I take it this is the best way to achieve what I want to do?

All suggestions appreciated.

Cheers.

Deft
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..........

Post by Deft » Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:03 pm

Although the compressor will probably do what you need, 95% of dj mixer crossfaders have no 3dB centre dip anymore - personally I find them a pain.
If you are getting a lot of constructive interference mid-mix then it would probably be easier to use bass eq to keep your mixing levels consistent. Hopefully Ableton will introduce some crossfader contour shaping in the next version.
As for the compressor - it's almost impossible to give blanket settings.
Start at a ratio of 3:1 and adjust the threshold so you are getting just over 3dB of gain reduction. Start maybe with a quick attack and longer release time?
Have a play and see how it sounds. Search for a few articles on compression if you aren't sure what the controls are likely to do.

KD
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Post by KD » Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:46 pm

Cheers Deft.

I am using bass e.q for the mixed parts of the mix - I kill the bass on the incoming track then bang it in while killing the bass on the outgoing track at the same time.

However, I need to use EQ4 for this as my version of Live doesn't have EQ3 (I read that EQ3 is comparable to the EQs on a DJ mixer). I'm only using the first band of EQ4 too - maybe I also need to use the second band to take out the mid-bottom range also and I won't get so much constructive interference?

I'll have a play with the compressor when I get home from work - I understand the principles of compression but have never managed to put them into practice effectively :cry:

duncjam
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Kjaerhus Master Limiter

Post by duncjam » Sat Nov 27, 2004 1:12 pm

I use Kjaerhus Master Limiter on my Live DJ sets. Works great for what I do plus it's free.

http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-master-limiter.php

dunc

Deft
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Re: Kjaerhus Master Limiter

Post by Deft » Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:57 pm

duncjam wrote:I use Kjaerhus Master Limiter on my Live DJ sets. Works great for what I do plus it's free.

http://www.kjaerhusaudio.com/classic-master-limiter.php

dunc
Cool link. I'm going to have a look at their classic series. Cheers.

::mic-minimal::
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Post by ::mic-minimal:: » Sat Nov 27, 2004 11:34 pm

let us know how it works out for you.
for the love of Live

Harris.Andrew
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Re: compression on master channel

Post by Harris.Andrew » Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:02 pm

I'd recommend _not_ using compression for this purprose, as it will color the sound pretty noticeably when used on an already mixed and mastered track.

A good limiter makes sense if and only if the track has pretty loud transients; if not, it'll probably distort very noticebaly.

If you're not dj'ing in real-time, i'd use automation to mix A-B, i've done that and it actually gives pretty nice control . . .

That said i just don't know what technique to use to if dj'ing real-time to keep levels constant . . . though compression and limiting are not the best solutions.

KD
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Location: Kirkcaldy, Scotland

Post by KD » Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:21 pm

Cheers for the compressor solutions - I've tried them both but I have to agree with Harris.Andrew - I'm left with an un-natural sound.

Crossfade automation is something I've thought of before and tried.

For example - when the 2 tracks start to mix i put a breakpoint on the crossfade envelope and set it to 0.10 to still give a slight emphasis to the outgoing track. Later, I add another breakpoint to switch the emphasis to the incoming track and set it to -0.10 etc.

However, because of the fine margins it all gets a bit of a fiddle. It would be much easier if you could type in the value at which an envelope breakpoint could be set.

Is this any easier in Live 4 or would a controller device help?

Maybe the best solution for me is to find an alternative to normalising the mix in SoundForge?

Sly One
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Post by Sly One » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:05 pm

A limiter is a compressor with a ratio higher than 1:10 (or 1:20 depending on who you speak to). In a hurry, I often use the Ableton compressor II set to the highest possible ratio and a very short lookahead. Then just set the threshold so that you get no reduction when a single tune is playing, except maybe the odd peak that you hardly notice unless you look carefully. Then you should find you get between a 3-6db reduction when beats overlay during a mix.

This is at a guess, but the Compressor II has RMS response which means that theoretically it should be able to control *apparent* level rather than just the peak level, like most compressors. In theory, this is exactly what you're after to control mix levels, so give it a try.

Attack time should be as short as it will go... play around with the release soa you get an uncoloured sound - look for a "punping" effect on the output (best monitored at very very low level!!)

I keep meaning to give DJing on ableton a stab - I probably trust it more than dodgy venue CD players these days - but I'm well used to controlling my own levels during a mix, I don't think I trust a compressor or limiter to do it for me. Ride the levels!

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