Group tracks to keep mixer sliders free of gain automation

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G-Pop
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Group tracks to keep mixer sliders free of gain automation

Post by G-Pop » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:58 am

[Caveat; Intro and Lite users are limited to 16 tracks, and grouping
even a single track then uses a second track for that "new group."]

Lots of folks, I've read, have issues related to Track Volume (gain) automation.
["Session View"]
Once you edit that envelope, you have to select an entire track section
(or full track) to then edit the (overall) gain of that tracks mixer output...
and then get rid of the errant nodes that process can't help but create...
And you can only do it in arrangement mode... and "Blind."
(no gain flag while you're dragging the whole tracks automated envelope.)
Changing the gain slider pops up the "Automation LED" and it's only option
is to "reset it" to where it was in the first place. :roll:
REMIXING is troublesome at best... Unless I missed something.

:idea:

YOU CAN GROUP A SINGLE TRACK! Let's do THAT then! :lol:
And it can have half a dozen (or more?) envelopes on it, (gain!) and it gets it's
own NEW Gain slider in the mixer! ("Session View") with nothing on it!
BONUS! ; You can add more envelpes ("automation Lanes") to the group track
too!
(But NOT another Master Gain! Defeats the purpose!)
and still have that wonderful, clean, UN-automated gain slider for the
track gain on your newly created "Group of One" Mixer output track

Yay!

G Pop!
Live10std. Win8x, 8G ram, Scarlette 2i2[1stGen] & ASIO[2ndGen]-KorgN5, M-audio MIDI, various guitarz!
Without skillz, we're all just Monkeys with Shotguns!

jestermgee
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Re: Group tracks to keep mixer sliders free of gain automation

Post by jestermgee » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:20 pm

Not quite sure if it's a question being asked or a solution being provided there....

To try and simplify what you are trying to say for my own eyes:

You are saying (I think) that if you automate the channel volume you have problems/complications if you need to adjust the channel volume, hence the desire to group a channel so you get another volume control for gain (one for automation)?

You can also add a Utility device to the tracks output that gives you a gain control which you can automate or use as a channel volume trim/boost control and no grouping or wasted tracks needed.

wearemindflux
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Re: Group tracks to keep mixer sliders free of gain automation

Post by wearemindflux » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:49 am

Yeah a utility would work better
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G-Pop
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Re: Group tracks to keep mixer sliders free of gain automation

Post by G-Pop » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:54 am

jestermgee wrote: Not quite sure if it's a question being asked or a solution being provided there.... (1)

To try and simplify what you are trying to say for my own eyes:
You are saying (I think) that if you automate the channel volume you have problems/complications
if you need to adjust the channel volume, hence the desire to group a channel so you get another
volume control for gain (one for automation)?
(2)

You can also add a Utility device to the tracks output that gives you a gain control
which you can automate or use as a channel volume trim/boost control and no grouping
or wasted tracks needed. (3+)
===================================================================================
1. It's a "Tips and Tricks" entry, albeit perhaps confusing. Is it in the wrong place?
I do often see a LOT of questions here...
Or I can edit it, or you can. I am "verbose." :oops: Please edit and/or advise!

2. Yep, the Mixer's ("Session View") track gain automation lane is a pain! lol!
I wish it were "relative" (Gain Envelopes) to the Mixers slider, (+x/-y), set and
forgotten in "Arrangement View" ... and NOT even effected by the slider, rather,
effecTING the slider,(+/-) if that makes sense. A reminder LED, ok. But no "return
or else"... (no other choice.)

I would ADORE that, being a dinosaur! My "Dream" Live!
[small tear wiped from 1 bloodshot eye]
Dream To me that is, the way I USE Live. I'm no DJ and don't have a single song of
"The 7" songs for my upcoming release with a single clip in a session view clip slot.)
Oh I use Session view a LOT... for MIXING. (Effects bus open on selected tracks/Master.)
Almost everything else I do is in arrangement view. I'm Mixasaurus Rex!

"Nesting" single tracks like this tip during remixes removed the pain and let me
mix like I want to; in the mixer. I sometimes boosted clip gain or EQ/COMP makeups
to get around it before, but that caused other issues at times (like clipping, et.al.!)

3. Someone pointed me at one of the Utilities (free) but when I went there, it wasn't
free anymore; 30 day trial then a buy. I'm not buying something I already have a gain
slider for on a DAW mixer, right? That's why it's there, I thought!

So... "Nesting" the tracks I have automated gain envelopes in a "group" track was MY
perfect solution.
I rarely need 16+ tracks, and usually don't automate gain on many
tracks; once I set clip volumes to match on the track the Mixer Slider is free.
But there are "those" tracks! "Nesting" them Wrangled those puppies and got 'em
under control! And I could still edit the gain lines / breakpoints / or all via selection
in the nested track in "Arranggement" view.

Anyway, I did a quick search to find "Gain Slider Utilities" or something but again,
paying for something like this (Utility/VST) to add it to the "soup" if something
goes awry in the mix is "foreboding" to me. I LOVE MY SOLUTION!

Nested Tracks!

PS: I have one song at 16 tracks and can't combine anything...
and many is the time I wished I could (Cuz my broke ass is still using Intro)
on it
, because I have five of those tracks automated. A VST(?) would be welcome
there though so if there's a TRUE "Freebie" that will let me set a tracks volume
IN THE MIXER then by ALL means, URL PLEASE! I'm even just interested in how that works
in Session (Mixer) view! Oh and does it? If it doesn't, that's my whole point.
I want to do final mastering in the Mixer. I NEED IT!!!


omg I'm sorry, I wrote another book! :oops:

G Pop(s) :D
Last edited by G-Pop on Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Live10std. Win8x, 8G ram, Scarlette 2i2[1stGen] & ASIO[2ndGen]-KorgN5, M-audio MIDI, various guitarz!
Without skillz, we're all just Monkeys with Shotguns!

chrk
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Re: Group tracks to keep mixer sliders free of gain automation

Post by chrk » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:13 am

G-Pop wrote:3. Someone pointed me at one of the Utilities
jester recommends Live's own Utility device, and that's just become even more of a utility with new features in Live 10. See what it can do for you: 22.36 Utility

G-Pop
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Re: Group tracks to keep mixer sliders free of gain automation

Post by G-Pop » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:19 pm

Hey thanks! Didn't think of this...
I saw them in the audio effects list but
didn't realize I could just use those with the
tracks effects bus window open.
Whammo! Gain control.

G pop
Live10std. Win8x, 8G ram, Scarlette 2i2[1stGen] & ASIO[2ndGen]-KorgN5, M-audio MIDI, various guitarz!
Without skillz, we're all just Monkeys with Shotguns!

G-Pop
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Re: Group tracks to keep mixer sliders free of gain automation

Post by G-Pop » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:12 pm

chrk wrote:jester recommends Live's own Utility device, and that's just become even more of a utility with new features in Live 10. See what it can do for you: 22.36 Utility
I'm STILL grouping any track that contains VOLUME automation,
BUT... I'm using the utility on the "nested" track to get around
the fact that the group track will have it's slider set @ 0db.

I want that mixing board to BE a mixing board w/o having to even address
previously set volume automation, and the combination of both gives me
EXACTLY what I want! I don't have to tweak the Utility... I WANT THAT SLIDER!
ON TOP! (Where's the "comiption fit" smiley? ) :lol:

Thanks again to all, and I'm loving Live10!

G Pops
Live10std. Win8x, 8G ram, Scarlette 2i2[1stGen] & ASIO[2ndGen]-KorgN5, M-audio MIDI, various guitarz!
Without skillz, we're all just Monkeys with Shotguns!

mikb
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Re: Group tracks to keep mixer sliders free of gain automation

Post by mikb » Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:22 pm

G-Pop wrote: I'm STILL grouping any track that contains VOLUME automation,
BUT... I'm using the utility on the "nested" track to get around
the fact that the group track will have it's slider set @ 0db.
There are also racks where each chain has its own level control and can popup with a fader in the mixer, even though sends of the rack are to the rack returns, but these can be routed to the main mixer returns in the output section. Live is very flexible and do not condone a certain way of working, I think.
Basic gear info: Macbook Pro with macOS 10.12, Ableton Live Suite version 9 (64bit) with Ozone, Push and APC20 as controllers.

G-Pop
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Re: Group tracks to keep mixer sliders free of gain automation

Post by G-Pop » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:01 pm

mikb wrote:
G-Pop wrote: I'm STILL grouping any track that contains VOLUME automation,
BUT... I'm using the utility on the "nested" track to get around
the fact that the group track will have it's slider set @ 0db.
There are also racks where each chain has its own level control and can popup with a fader in the mixer, even though sends of the rack are to the rack returns, but these can be routed to the main mixer returns in the output section. Live is very flexible and do not condone a certain way of working, I think.
YESSSSS! I have been working with racks lately;
and I did discover the gain controls on many Effects and instruments.
That makes it easy; drop my group slider to say, -6db and boost the
racks gain to about the level of output I'd originally mixed! :idea:

Great way to make an Fx chain you want to REUSE later,
and even drop in by default on new audio or MIDI tracks.

I knew this "gentle giant" of a DAW was going to be a "learning curve."
NOT COMPLAINING... but often I've read the manual sections on various
things and come away more thoroughly confused than indoctrinated!
They are clear and concise... but in technical writing one assumes the
subject knows the nomenclature and terminology, and often I don't!

Again, thanks to ALL for the amazing and ever-present help I
have received here! I OWE the "NextGen's" bigtime!

G Pops
Live10std. Win8x, 8G ram, Scarlette 2i2[1stGen] & ASIO[2ndGen]-KorgN5, M-audio MIDI, various guitarz!
Without skillz, we're all just Monkeys with Shotguns!

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