is ableton just a toy, not a full-fledged digital audio workstation?

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Bulemy
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is ableton just a toy, not a full-fledged digital audio workstation?

Post by Bulemy » Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:26 am

I have a project that contains lead vocals and backing vocals. I send them to different return tracks and process them with different effects. All these effects, along with all the vocal groups, I want to compress on one bus. Only bad luck, it cannot be done. Wherever return tracks are directed other than the master channel, they cause a delay (from the Ableton manual) that cannot be compensated for manually.
No other Daw has this limitation. In the same Bitwig, you can put audio and return tracks in one group and edit them as one bus, not to mention the capabilities of Daw such as logic or cubase. Is this absurd, or am I missing something?) Thanks.

doghouse
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Re: is ableton just a toy, not a full-fledged digital audio workstation?

Post by doghouse » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:36 pm

Maybe you should not ask the same question three times when you want an answer :wink:

Bussing return tracks is not latency compensated in Live. Not really an issue for reverbs and delays, definitely an issue with modulation effects. It is what it is.

-- Every single DAW in the universe can do something that no other DAW can do.

-- Every single DAW in the universe can not do something that some other DAW can do.

This is why many people use multiple DAWs and put up with craziness like Rewire, IAC busses, etc.

[erm]
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Re: is ableton just a toy, not a full-fledged digital audio workstation?

Post by [erm] » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:50 pm

Please do not post the same question to multiple sub forums.
Ableton Forum Administrator

Bulemy
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Re: is ableton just a toy, not a full-fledged digital audio workstation?

Post by Bulemy » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:13 pm

[erm] wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:50 pm
Please do not post the same question to multiple sub forums.
sure

Bulemy
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Re: is ableton just a toy, not a full-fledged digital audio workstation?

Post by Bulemy » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:17 pm

doghouse wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:36 pm
Maybe you should not ask the same question three times when you want an answer :wink:

Bussing return tracks is not latency compensated in Live. Not really an issue for reverbs and delays, definitely an issue with modulation effects. It is what it is.

-- Every single DAW in the universe can do something that no other DAW can do.

-- Every single DAW in the universe can not do something that some other DAW can do.

This is why many people use multiple DAWs and put up with craziness like Rewire, IAC busses, etc.
But why bitwig Can?
If ableton has not been able to implement their own code to make it work properly for decades, borrow what others have done well! There is nothing to be ashamed about.

many people say that this cannot be fixed / this is a natural and normal order of things, but look at bitwig, due to the different from ableton mechanics of return tracks in bitwig, you can do mastering of any complexity.

topherc
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Re: is ableton just a toy, not a full-fledged digital audio workstation?

Post by topherc » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:58 pm

Are you talking about the latency when you set a channel to monitor on? So if the outputs of the return tracks are output to another channel rather than the master you need to have input monitoring on so there is latency?

So what if you output all the return channels you want to compress , as-well as the original vocal channels to a new channel then the vocal tracks will also have the same latency so there wouldn't be a problem right? But perhaps I am missing something?

If your total mix was made of say three buses e.g., vocal, drums and bass (or whatever) and input monitoring is on for all three then nothing would be out of sync...

Bulemy
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Re: is ableton just a toy, not a full-fledged digital audio workstation?

Post by Bulemy » Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:44 pm

topherc wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:58 pm
Are you talking about the latency when you set a channel to monitor on? So if the outputs of the return tracks are output to another channel rather than the master you need to have input monitoring on so there is latency?

So what if you output all the return channels you want to compress , as-well as the original vocal channels to a new channel then the vocal tracks will also have the same latency so there wouldn't be a problem right? But perhaps I am missing something?

If your total mix was made of say three buses e.g., vocal, drums and bass (or whatever) and input monitoring is on for all three then nothing would be out of sync...
I tried in different ways and it didn't work out for me.
I tried this with a hi-hat and a delay. It's very simple, try it yourself.

topherc
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Re: is ableton just a toy, not a full-fledged digital audio workstation?

Post by topherc » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:30 pm

Please could you link the page in the manual that talks about this?

pottering
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Re: is ableton just a toy, not a full-fledged digital audio workstation?

Post by pottering » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:43 pm

It is impossible by the laws of physics to compensate latency for a plugin inside a feedback loop, and Bitwig doesn't even allow feedback loops.

topherc
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Re: is ableton just a toy, not a full-fledged digital audio workstation?

Post by topherc » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:47 pm

Bulemy wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:44 pm
I tried in different ways and it didn't work out for me.
I tried this with a hi-hat and a delay. It's very simple, try it yourself.
I've just tried it with a hat and a delay... I think I can hear some latency but it is so small that I can barely notice it, was A/B-ing between outputting the return channel to the master and outputting to another channel and there might have been a tiny difference but way too small to really matter. I'm wondering what situation this would be an issue? I mean delays and reverbs are time based anyway so not an issue, you can just tweak the reverb time... You could also just bounce the tracks and move them slightly in relation to one another then compress.

Bulemy
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Re: is ableton just a toy, not a full-fledged digital audio workstation?

Post by Bulemy » Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:04 pm

My bad guys, i found answer here. viewtopic.php?t=223476
I just forgot disable sending to my "Pre-master" channel, to which I have sent a group with all the tracks. Be careful!

jestermgee
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Re: is ableton just a toy, not a full-fledged digital audio workstation?

Post by jestermgee » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:13 pm

I guess kids will think of things as toys. Adults phrase questions in a sensible way.... and research before putting foot in mouth.

Richie Witch
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Re: is ableton just a toy, not a full-fledged digital audio workstation?

Post by Richie Witch » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:38 pm

Point made--I'll stay out of it.
"Watching the Sky" ~ A 4-track EP of piano, strings, and Native American flute

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