Latency from master track effect plugins

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daveberger
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Latency from master track effect plugins

Post by daveberger » Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:21 pm

I'm having problems with latency while recording when I have any VST plugins (eg. Fabfilter L2) on the master track. This seems to cause latency even at the smallest buffer sizes (with sub 10ms overall calculated latency) and no other plugins on any channels. Affects both audio and MIDI recording.

CPU usage is at around 25%. Switching Delay Compensation and Reduced Latency While Monitoring on and off has no noticeable effect. Everything is fine when I replace L2 with the Live Limiter. From what I can tell L2 isn't a particularly CPU heavy plugin and doesn't increase delay compensation by much in Pro Tools.

Any thoughts?

jestermgee
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Re: Latency from master track effect plugins

Post by jestermgee » Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:14 pm

It is just how it is.

Some plugins (irrespective of their CPU load) need some lookahead time to do what they do so will introduce a latency when used. Often these should only ever be used in the mix/mastering stage so as not to cause issues when tracking. It can also depend on what profile/preset you select. Some Waves analog moddeled effects have large delays as does Izotope Ozone. Never add them till you are ready to mix.

A google search shows it is pretty normal for this plugin:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Fabfilt ... e&ie=UTF-8
At the moment Pro-L 2 will always introduce some latency. The transparent algorithm introduces the least amount of latency (about 476 samples) which amounts to +/- 11 ms. I think this will be on the edge of annoying while playing a synth. We might do a dedicated metering plug-in in the future.

luckykat
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Re: Latency from master track effect plugins

Post by luckykat » Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:09 am

@daveberger - I'm having a similar issue with Ozone 9. Hoping for solutions as this is a severe productivity roadblock.

@jestermgee - When I add Ozone 9 on Master, my CPU goes from about 50% to 110% and causes severe latency where sound is almost inaudible. There has to be a way around this for producers. Any ideas?

jestermgee
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Re: Latency from master track effect plugins

Post by jestermgee » Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:22 am

luckykat wrote: โ†‘
Mon Dec 07, 2020 5:09 am
@jestermgee - When I add Ozone 9 on Master, my CPU goes from about 50% to 110% and causes severe latency where sound is almost inaudible. There has to be a way around this for producers. Any ideas?
Depends on system and specs (not stated).
Latency and load are different things. Load is how many CPU cycles all your software and plugins will allow for, latency is the delay in time needed for plugins to calculate their process. To lessen the load in your case:
- Freeze tracks
- Use less processing plugins
- Render tracks out and mix/master stems instead of doing all within your production environment.

A reason some will mix in a different program, apart from a more desirable workflow, you can drop all the load from synths and track plugins and switch to mixing plugins and devote all the processing for the master section. It's about working smarter, not just increasing the CPU and demanding more efficiency for the way you choose to work, look into how seasoned professionals work, i'm not one of them but I take notes from their books.

Mark Williams
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Re: Latency from master track effect plugins

Post by Mark Williams » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:22 am

Bounce everything down to Audio BEFORE you do anything with Ozone. That way you can then just solely use Ozone to finish your track
Live 11, M1 Mac Mini, Push 2, Scarlett 18i20 & ADA8200, Softube Console 1 Mk2, Deepmind12, Hydrasynth, Cobalt 8M, Moog Subsequent 25, IK Uno Synth Pro, Plethora X3, Nord Drum 3P

Ast3rix
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Re: Latency from master track effect plugins

Post by Ast3rix » Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:47 pm

I was having this issue as well with the master. I found it to be a real issue for me when working with waves and UAD plugins. I ended up doing something totally strange with my setup. I converted my audio setup over to LUNA and am using it as a console. This allows me to use the realtime engine to run plugins that I normally would place on the master. I removed all the plugins from Ableton's master except the fabfilter pro 3 which I just can't live without. I moved all the heavy load bearing plugins to LUNA and now I don't have any issues latency caused by the master channel. I still have about 12ms of latency overall and I just got to that point recently after resetting Ableton back to factory. I can now run UAD tape's and modeled limiters on the master which in Ableton directly caused me great pain.
Ast3rix
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daveberger
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Re: Latency from master track effect plugins

Post by daveberger » Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:21 pm

Thanks all. I guess I will just stick to the Live limiter to keep my master from redlining during tracking/messing around.

On a separate note, I've found Ozone and Neutron to be crazy CPU heavy too, which in the case of Neutron can be a real bummer if you're trying to use it on a few tracks to check for masking...

luckykat
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Re: Latency from master track effect plugins

Post by luckykat » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:34 pm

@daveberger - I feel like this software could be less CPU intensive. Easy to stay stick to a process that has occurred because the software is weak. But I think the technology needs to adjust to the platform and the producers who are using it and spending money on it. It is only iZotope products / Ozone 9 that do this.

luckykat
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Re: Latency from master track effect plugins

Post by luckykat » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:37 pm

@jestermgee - Is there a risk with rendering tracks where you can't go back and easily make changes? Or when it is rendered, is it dynamic? Same question for freezing. These options seem like good suggestions. Thanks!

luckykat
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Re: Latency from master track effect plugins

Post by luckykat » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:39 pm

Mark Williams wrote: โ†‘
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:22 am
Bounce everything down to Audio BEFORE you do anything with Ozone. That way you can then just solely use Ozone to finish your track
How do you bounce everything down to audio?

jestermgee
Posts: 4500
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Re: Latency from master track effect plugins

Post by jestermgee » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:44 pm

luckykat wrote: โ†‘
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:37 pm
@jestermgee - Is there a risk with rendering tracks where you can't go back and easily make changes? Or when it is rendered, is it dynamic? Same question for freezing. These options seem like good suggestions. Thanks!
Not if done correct.

Freeze can be useful when you are producing and a heavy track is mostly done but takes a lot of processing. Freeze will just create an in place render and place all the devices "offline" so a "representation" of that track is played instead. Should sound identical to how it was tracked.

You can choose in the Live Export options to render instead of the Master, "All Tracks":

Image

That will generate a wav file for each separate track often referred to as "stems". What you then do is either reload those as a new project in Live if you like to stay in Live but many will take these to a more "traditional" linear DAW where they can then focus purely on the mixing side where you now have all the power available for processing the sound to the final mix. It also shifts focus from wanting to make further edits but if you do need to, you can just export the stems again and re-import into your "mixing" project and have all the same processing applied (being cautious about any automation)

Personally, I don't do it this way as I tend to work within the limits of my machine and do all the mixing within the project, just at the very end of production.

luckykat
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Re: Latency from master track effect plugins

Post by luckykat » Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:50 pm

jestermgee wrote: โ†‘
Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:44 pm
luckykat wrote: โ†‘
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:37 pm
@jestermgee - Is there a risk with rendering tracks where you can't go back and easily make changes? Or when it is rendered, is it dynamic? Same question for freezing. These options seem like good suggestions. Thanks!
Not if done correct.

Freeze can be useful when you are producing and a heavy track is mostly done but takes a lot of processing. Freeze will just create an in place render and place all the devices "offline" so a "representation" of that track is played instead. Should sound identical to how it was tracked.

You can choose in the Live Export options to render instead of the Master, "All Tracks":

Image

That will generate a wav file for each separate track often referred to as "stems". What you then do is either reload those as a new project in Live if you like to stay in Live but many will take these to a more "traditional" linear DAW where they can then focus purely on the mixing side where you now have all the power available for processing the sound to the final mix. It also shifts focus from wanting to make further edits but if you do need to, you can just export the stems again and re-import into your "mixing" project and have all the same processing applied (being cautious about any automation)

Personally, I don't do it this way as I tend to work within the limits of my machine and do all the mixing within the project, just at the very end of production.
So it's a bit like responsive web design (it loads lighter images/content to speed up load time and reduce CPU %)? I'll try adopting freezing & let you know how it goes. Thanks for the suggestion and help! 8)

Mark Williams
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Location: Kent

Re: Latency from master track effect plugins

Post by Mark Williams » Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:30 pm

luckykat wrote: โ†‘
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:39 pm
Mark Williams wrote: โ†‘
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:22 am
Bounce everything down to Audio BEFORE you do anything with Ozone. That way you can then just solely use Ozone to finish your track
How do you bounce everything down to audio?
Record all the tracks to Audio, either as a stereo Master or individual audio tracks. Generally a Much lighter load on CPU using Audio only. Then you can apply mixing/mastering plugins. Try it and see how much CPU you save doing it this way. ON a plus side too, makes you commit tracks to Audio instead of continually fiddling/tweaking the midi. makes my workflow much quicker in end & actually finishing tracks :)
Live 11, M1 Mac Mini, Push 2, Scarlett 18i20 & ADA8200, Softube Console 1 Mk2, Deepmind12, Hydrasynth, Cobalt 8M, Moog Subsequent 25, IK Uno Synth Pro, Plethora X3, Nord Drum 3P

luckykat
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Re: Latency from master track effect plugins

Post by luckykat » Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:34 am

Mark Williams wrote: โ†‘
Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:30 pm
luckykat wrote: โ†‘
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:39 pm
Mark Williams wrote: โ†‘
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:22 am
Bounce everything down to Audio BEFORE you do anything with Ozone. That way you can then just solely use Ozone to finish your track
How do you bounce everything down to audio?
Record all the tracks to Audio, either as a stereo Master or individual audio tracks. Generally a Much lighter load on CPU using Audio only. Then you can apply mixing/mastering plugins. Try it and see how much CPU you save doing it this way. ON a plus side too, makes you commit tracks to Audio instead of continually fiddling/tweaking the midi. makes my workflow much quicker in end & actually finishing tracks :)

Thanks Mark. This is working well. This will really help with my first single and all songs/albums released in the future. Big help. Cheers! :D

Mark Williams
Posts: 898
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2014 2:43 pm
Location: Kent

Re: Latency from master track effect plugins

Post by Mark Williams » Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:32 am

Glad its working out for you :)
Live 11, M1 Mac Mini, Push 2, Scarlett 18i20 & ADA8200, Softube Console 1 Mk2, Deepmind12, Hydrasynth, Cobalt 8M, Moog Subsequent 25, IK Uno Synth Pro, Plethora X3, Nord Drum 3P

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