Clip playback; flawed Ableton support

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cundare
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Clip playback; flawed Ableton support

Post by cundare » Sun Jan 15, 2023 2:10 am

I've been trying to learn Ableton Live 11 for a month (Win 10 PC), but after going through a bunch of YouTube tutorials (scattershot b/c most assume that viewers already know certain features and a true beginner quickly gets lost trying to figure out the functionality that is skipped), contacting Ableton support ("Sorry, but we don't answer 'usability' questions (??). Please purchase a course from one of our Certified Trainers.'), contacting the seller from whom I bought the program ("Sorry, but Ableton now sells the Live Suite only direct; dealers who have been cut out no longer provide support."), and even reading the first excruciating 150 pages of the 850pp user guide -- I still can't perform simple mixing and mastering tasks. Even posting questions on this forum, it's been hit or miss. The last time, e.g., I received well-intentioned, but completely wrong advice that would have had me buying unnecessary hardware in order to solve a straightforward software compatibility problem.

The problem is NOT a lack of documentation. As with any database, access is at least as important as content. When one has a specific question, what is needed is a way to quickly figure out WHERE to find the answer.

I should mention that I'm not even thinking right now of creating content from scratch. My first tasks are to mix and master compositions created in a scoring package and rendered as a set of FLAC files that each contain one part.

A good example of my current frustration has to do with clip playback. Is there any succinct reference that states, simply and straightforwardly, how to begin playback: i) from the beginning of a clip; ii) from the beginning of an arrangement; iii) from an arbitrarily selected point inside a clip or arrangement; iv) from the point where previous playback ended -- etc.? And how performing these tasks differs, depending on whether you're displaying a clip in Session, Arrangement, Clip, or some other view? Maybe a reference card exists that lists these common, essential operations, but if so, I can't find it.

I also haven't been able to dope out the relationship between Session View and Arrangement View. Apparently, I'm not the only one, since an experienced Ableton user I met tells me that he never uses Session View b/c he's never figured out how to work it into his methodology.

E.g., if you load content into either View, sometimes the content is visible in the other View, but sometimes not. Sometimes you can play the content in both Views, sometimes not. Sometimes you can edit the content in one View and the edits propagate into the other. And, sigh, sometimes not. A few exemplary use cases might have been worth a thousand words, but after reading the "Getting Started", "Session View", and "Arrangement View" chapters in the user guide, I still have no idea how the two views complement each other, nor how you would use them together when composing. The documentation merely discusses isolated functionality, and skips over the fundamental workflow concepts that would have allowed readers to underrstand -- or maybe even figure out by themselves -- how these apparently powerful features are intended to be used. I can't believe that the only way to access Session View content from Arrangement View is to play the content in Session View (tough with a composition consisting of over a dozen16-minute clips) while "recording" each clip to Arrangement View. That can't be right.

Those are just two examples of questions that could probably be answered quickly by an experienced user -- and I'd be ecstatic if someone here could do so. But my real question is about where can I go, in general, to get help. And so nobody gets the wrong idea, I'm an experienced user of studio hardware and music software, going all the way back to the 1980s, when I managed an 8-track home studio. In addition to having a graduate degree in computer science, I started out beta-testing the earliest versions of Cakewalk and Finale. So I'm not a clueless newbie. In fact, I recently migrated to Dorico and, despite its enormous function set, didn't take long to start using it to score lengthy, complex ensemble pieces. But there's a world of difference between Dorico and Ableton support, at least as things exist today since Ableton went direct.

Please don't get me wrong -- I'm not trying to post an angry rant. What I'm looking for is guidance about where to find well-written references that can get me to the point where I can answer my own questions in the future -- without having to buy unknown-quantity courseware from a "certified trainer" or wade through "Ableton Start to Finish" homemade videos that actually start and end in the middle. Can anyone recommend specific resources that, from personal experience, are fully thought through and useful for new users? Tutorials that, for example, succinctly describe basic concepts or essential functionality like how to start playback in all the ways enumerated above.

Sorry for the lengthy message. But Ableton's approach to documentation and support is getting me close to the point of very reluctantly uninstalling this $750 package and replacing it with something like Pro Tools.

Can anybody help?

[jur]
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Re: Clip playback; flawed Ableton support

Post by [jur] » Sun Jan 15, 2023 12:04 pm

Something I'm repeating for years and that should be more often advised imo:
In Live's Help Menu > Help > Lessons
The right-hand side panel will open with built-in lessons/tutorials with demo sets included that explains you all Live basics in a very interactive (the sets) and concise way.
Take 2 hours to follow those lessons and you shouldn't ever need to buy any course or special training... these give you every foundational stones, and the rest should click automatically afterward.
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Tarekith
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Re: Clip playback; flawed Ableton support

Post by Tarekith » Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:26 pm

There’s also a ton of short, concise videos walking you through the basics of Live here:

https://www.ableton.com/en/live/learn-live/
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cundare
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Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:58 pm

Re: Clip playback; flawed Ableton support

Post by cundare » Sun Jan 15, 2023 6:34 pm

jur: Thanks for the quick reply. I'd looked in the past for that "Lessons" option, only to find that it no longer existed in Live 11. Your message got me looking more deeply, though, and I noticed that there is now a "built-in lessons" link at the bottom of Live's Help View.

So I went through the first couple of lessons this morning, but really, they're just 10,000-foot overviews. For example, re: my question about playback options, the only instruction in the "beginner's" lesson is to "press the space bar to start and stop playback." Amazing as it seems, I still haven't found a way to begin playback from an arbitrary point in the middle of a clip, other than dragging a tiny marker to the desired location.

Regardless, I haven't gone through all the lessons and will take your advice to spend a few hours doing so. Maybe this is all I'll need to get to the point where I know enough to be able to answer my own questions.

Tarekith: I did browse through a # of those videos when I first installed Live 11, but perhaps I didn't yet have the background to appreciate them. I found myself getting lost when a clip zipped over some function that the author assumed the viewer was already familiar with. Maybe I'll go through some of them again after viewing the Help lessons.

I also just found a pretty good intro tutorial among the many dozens posted on YouTube at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSnjD6xe5bM I highly recommend this one as a starting point for new users.

Thanks again, both of you. At least now I have a game plan, and have identified resources that have been recommended by experienced users. I know how I'll be spending this Sunday!

C

cundare
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:58 pm

Re: Clip playback; flawed Ableton support

Post by cundare » Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:01 pm

Just wanted to get back with my final comments on this topic.

I found an excellent beginner's tutorial series on YouTube by a young influencer named Taetro. It's ad-supported and has about 250,000 followers. Other than the first segment, which omits a few (but only a few) comments necessary to follow along, I found it to be comprehensive, easy-to-follow, and quite well thought-out. This Taetro fellow also has other tutorial series on topics like music theory. Highly recommended, at least from my perspective

First installment is at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSnjD6xe5bM

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