VSTi's and MIDI Program Changes??

dbone · Post by **dbone** » Sun May 20, 2007 2:57 pm

I feel like an absolute dunce posting this question, but... I am getting ready to use Live LIVE and never had to bother with sending MIDI program changes to VSTi's while simply composing a track.

I've used PC messages with *hardware* no problem but this is giving me hell! I want to send them from a CLIP (NOT from my hardware controller - I've seen posts with some people doing this) to a VSTi such as MicroTonic, FM8, etc.

Am I missing something here or is this another one of those things that I'll be shocked to find that Live doesn't do without some kind of workaround or constructing some colossal freaking rack??

Currently, I am just going into whatever Clip and sending the program change as I would have with hardware...

Needless to say, any help or insight would be greatly appreciated!!

Clearscreen · Post by **Clearscreen** » Mon May 21, 2007 12:07 am

should work fine, but not all vsti's use program changes.most of the native instruments stuff does, and the ohmforce stuff as well, but not sure about microtonic...

the other thing to remember is that program changes are only sent when the clip fires the first time - not while looping.

Michael-SW · Post by **Michael-SW** » Mon May 21, 2007 10:19 am

Every midi clip has a program change/bank parameter. Just fill those in and see what happens.

For live playing it might be handy to have empty non looping clips with no quantization, just the program change in them, named after the preset.

dbone · Post by **dbone** » Mon May 21, 2007 1:57 pm

Tried it using MicroTonic, FM8 and Gmedia Oddity... still no go.

As far as I can tell, "Bank" and "Sub-Bank" can probably be set to "None" but I have fiddled around with them, of course. The only thing needed would be to change the "Patch" setting, right??

I have the MIDI input set to "Any/All". Monitor set to "Auto" rather than "Input" (duh).

I have even tried it as a Single Shot clip. ...GAH!! Seems this should be the *easiest* thing in the world!! Any other suggestions??

Clearscreen · Post by **Clearscreen** » Mon May 21, 2007 11:31 pm

microtonic definitely doesn't respond to program changes. have no idea about oddity, but i would've thought FM8 would be able to use them.

The only thing needed would be to change the "Patch" setting, right??

if by that you mean 'program' then yes, thats all you need to change.

I have the MIDI input set to "Any/All". Monitor set to "Auto" rather than "Input" (duh).

I have even tried it as a Single Shot clip. ...GAH!! Seems this should be the *easiest* thing in the world!! Any other suggestions??

are you sending the program changes from clips on the same track FM8 is on? or routing them from clips in another track?

dbone · Post by **dbone** » Tue May 22, 2007 12:21 am

Ahh... bummer about MicroTonic but thanks for letting me know - I really appreciate the help. At least I know not to bang my head on it anymore! Weird, being that it *does* have the usual slots for patches and capability to save banks that's built into most VST's...

I would be *shocked* if Oddity did not respond once all of this is solved. Thought that maybe FM8 is a little different with the KORE browsing features... we'll see.

I would *greatly* prefer to send the Program Change from within a Clip - Can it be done that way?? Otherwise I'm gonna have to manually trigger two clips at once and that would be teh suck.

Failing that, I just can't figure out what's next... Here's a screen cap from the setup in question:

Clearscreen · Post by **Clearscreen** » Tue May 22, 2007 12:35 am

I would *greatly* prefer to send the Program Change from within a Clip

thats the way it should work, but when you mentioned the routing options i thought i'd better ask to make sure. i noticed in your sig that you have reaktor 5. maybe try it with that using carbon2 as i know for sure it works in that, and at least we can eliminate whether it's the software or something else...

as mentioned though, the program change *only* gets sent when the clip is first launched, not on every loop around. not that i think you're messing that up, but maybe's it's related somehow...

dbone · Post by **dbone** » Tue May 22, 2007 1:29 am

Good call, mate - Carbon 2 works like a charm. But wow... what a disappointment!! Half my VSTi arsenal is coming up lame on simple program changes. Fack-a-doodle-doo!!

Preparing for my first gig with Live - good thing I have about 2 months to get it together 'cause it's beginning to seem like an uphill battle. Apart from Reaktor, ony other suggestions for VST's that respond to Prog Changes??

Thanks again, Clearscreen!! +1!

Clearscreen · Post by **Clearscreen** » Tue May 22, 2007 1:51 am

the ohmforce stuff (http://www.ohmforce.com) uses program changes... i have symptohm and i have to say i think it's a pretty good synth. it does a lot of analog sounding stuff but can do some kind of out there granular sorts of sounds as well - not bad for a rompler! dunno about their other synths soundwise but one of their selling points is that they can use program changes, and also have melohman which morphs/switches between patches within a preset.

you might look at plogue bidule for hosting plugins as this can load modular presets/setups that include synths and effects based on program changes, but it won't use the live native stuff. you can also look at putting your plugs into racks and switching between them that way, but it kinda depends how much cpu they use when idling.

i'm really surprised that FM8 won't use the program changes... seems really strange as i was under the impression *all* NI stuff could use em. oh well...

ewistrand · Post by **ewistrand** » Thu May 24, 2007 6:55 am

Clearscreen wrote:i'm really surprised that FM8 won't use the program changes... seems really strange as i was under the impression *all* NI stuff could use em. oh well...

FM8 will- if you have (and enable) a program list. Because it uses a straight database instead of banks, the number of available patches is far more than the 128 normally accessible by program changes; hence you drag the patches you want into the list. Pages 105 and 106 in the FM8 manual cover program lists.

ew

dbone · Post by **dbone** » Thu May 24, 2007 1:11 pm

Really appreciate the tip! I *knew* it had to be something having to do with KORE.

julienb · Post by **julienb** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:25 am

okay for NI VSTi, but ...

what about a process to create program list?
indeed, there are some problems I mentionned here: http://www.nativeinstruments.de/forum_d ... 114&page=3 (from the post #43 to the end)

probably, my knowledge isn't great enough, but nobody has really answered about banks of NI VSTi

where are these banks ?
how to create a "solid & stable" configuration with NI VSTi (as plugins in live!) ?
is there a clean process to build program list ?

I have to say that Program changes work with program list!
but it isn't enough

I need a stable/backupable/crash recovery-able confguration ...!

:-O

Ruso · Post by **Ruso** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 4:57 pm

yes there is, it goes for absynth, massive, fm8....

here's how you do it... go to the browser, press the program button at the top so it pops up the little program list. now start going through patches pick ones you like and simply drag them onto the program list.... Now when you get all the ones you wanted you have to save the list for future reference. It will auto load it with the set after you close the set.... when you want to start using it, press the enable button in the program list and now it will respond to program changes.

in ableton it's as easy as doible clicking on the clip and it will have three text boxes, bank lsb bank msb and program.... only change the program.

another more memory intencive but much more clean way to do this is through using racks in ableton live with many instances of the synth with different patches.

julienb · Post by **julienb** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:34 pm

yes

but try more than 2 instances of the same plug ins...
try a long time

it isn't stable

VSTi's and MIDI Program Changes??

VSTi's and MIDI Program Changes??

Still no go...

Getting There... Screen Cap

Unbelieveable

Thanks!!