DRUMS. friggin drums.

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mesaboogiewes
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Location: Birmingham, AL

DRUMS. friggin drums.

Post by mesaboogiewes » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:04 pm

So i'm new to live, new to "electronic" music...but so far what I've learned i really like and am getting into...

drum and bass or jungle seem to be my favorite style so far, although i'm into a lot of other sounds too...

i come from a rock background - mostly guitar and keys - so i've had no trouble creating synths and ambience and other sounds like that as i'm used to creating that kind of thing...what i'm lacking in is percussion as i've always had a drummer to do that for me...

of course using live's impulse isn't the same thing as sitting behind a kit....

i've messed and messed with it and can't get the drums to sound remotely close to the flowing kick ass beats i've heard from the pro's. any tips and tricks to get me on the right track to doin this?

i'm guessing the key is to keep it simple (although it sounds complicated as hell) and layer all the differnt parts so i can drop things in and out...

and then there's the breaks or fills and how to get them to work...

help! :cry:

granted
Posts: 157
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Post by granted » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:43 pm

Drop some cabbage here:

http://www.groovemonkee.com/

groovemonkee

Midi drum loops.

I don't work for these people I am just a very satisfied customer.
They have free demo's to download.
The midi drums loops saves you from two things. Searching through hundreds of Audio drum loops to find the one you want.
Or the painful (for some of us.) task of creating midi drums from scratch.

Combine their midi loops with Ableton's "Follow Action" (The MOST underrated feature of LIVE?) and you will be in heaven.

Awesome.

There are other companies that make midi drums loops too.

mesaboogiewes
Posts: 69
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Location: Birmingham, AL

Post by mesaboogiewes » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:49 pm

can these loops be copyrighted if they're just midi loops?

i guess one could change 1 simple thing to get out of it.

either way it would be a good way for me to graphically see what a cool midi track looks like...

thanx! :D

mesaboogiewes
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:46 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Post by mesaboogiewes » Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:56 pm

and which format do i need to use with live?

next question is:

samples? where's a great place to get good samples?

granted
Posts: 157
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Post by granted » Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:30 pm

In Live using impulse you can use the Single Track GM files.
You will also have to use the instructions here:
http://www.groovemonkee.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=138

Drums samples? Don't forget that LIVE comes with a bunch of impulse drum sets.

There are so many products, so many choices that it's something you may just want to spend a few hours googling.
You can go with individual sample collections.
Or drum sets like BFD and DFH.
I use Battery 3 and Impulse.
Where to get good samples? umm Pretty much everywhere.

Angstrom
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Post by Angstrom » Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:56 pm

a big free multisampled kit from NaturalStudios

http://naturalstudio.co.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=548

Ruso
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Post by Ruso » Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:27 pm

but in the end do work on your own drums... in both jungle and dnb the drums are the most critical element because it defines the rhythm to all the other instruments... at least in the most recent styles of dnb and the most uptempo dancible dnb...

Please oh please don't learn with the fucking amen break. Amen is dead yo. :lol: It's lasted for almost 40 years it's time to let it go.

mrzosonp
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Post by mrzosonp » Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:03 pm

for those who are as green as me, here's the def. of "amen break"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen_Break
do you think a vintage laptop would sound better?

snakedogman
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Post by snakedogman » Sat Aug 04, 2007 11:39 pm

well if you buy something like Battery 3 or FXpansion's GURU you get several gigabytes of drumsamples included so for someone starting out that might be a decent investment and it will give you a lot of sounds to make your own drumpatterns. Of course you could also sample your own drums from records if that's your thing but it will take you a bit more time to build up a decent collection.

dru
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Location: Perth, Australia

Post by dru » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:10 am

How are you recording your drums? Point click in the Piano roll or recording using a velocity sensitive midi controller then quantizing? I found that using a controller would get a much better, dynamic sound from making drums. Recording each of the kit separately and overlaying with the other bits of kit.

It's worth buying a padcontroller.

mesaboogiewes
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:46 pm
Location: Birmingham, AL

Post by mesaboogiewes » Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:08 pm

dru wrote:How are you recording your drums? Point click in the Piano roll or recording using a velocity sensitive midi controller then quantizing? I found that using a controller would get a much better, dynamic sound from making drums. Recording each of the kit separately and overlaying with the other bits of kit.

It's worth buying a padcontroller.
right now I've got a m-audio O2 and a keystation 88 (which is in the shop cuz my dumb ass tripped over the usb and busted the jack out)...

so i'm tappin out the beats on the keyboard and correcting the fuck-ups with the pencil tool...

using reason 2.5's dr. rex and drum machine seem to sound better - but I like having the drums running midi through midi instruments in live - simply for the aspect of having more control...well not more...but different control...easier to edit midi on the fly i guess...

I pretty much use reason just like it's an audio instrument in live - creating audio samples into live and then playing them just like i play any other sample in live. I don't even use reason's sequencer...

the biggest problem i'm running into - is the ghost beats and the hats n cymbals...in dnb or jungle or any fast tempo's elctronica - the hats have this flow that you could listen to on their own and just kinda knod ur head and think about smoking something nice....but mine sound like a sissy-fied machine gun.

yup: i'm about as green as it gets.

dancerchris
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Post by dancerchris » Sun Aug 05, 2007 3:41 pm

If you're used to real drummers, impulse will probably not cut it. You can get hard core with impulse in racks etc. but there are other easier ways to get what your looking for.

You need a good full drum kit VSTi. Toontrack's DFHS or Easydrummer, BFD from FXpansion are great kits. You will need some midi files for beats as these are just VSTi's. Prosonic Studios http://www.prosonic-studios.com has a great selection of midi files (much more reasonable than groovemonkey IMO) for a variety of music styles. There are daily changes on the prices and there are some incredible buys, so mind your purchase timing.

Another awesome place to start is with Rayzoon's Jamstix (Jamstix II is set to release Aug. 20). You just can select a style and an audio or midi track to follow and the drummer/brain in Jamstix will do it all for you. This software has a sounding kit/samples for playing your own midi as well. I highly recommend this as the starting place for an entry into midi drumming.
Live 8.4.2 / Win 8 Pro 64 bit / Core 2 Quad 2.66 GHZ / 8 Gb ram
Presonus Firepod / Axiom 49 / PadKontrol
Various guitars, keyboards, sax and friends

rhedcerulean
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Post by rhedcerulean » Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:30 pm

Another awesome place to start is with Rayzoon's Jamstix
Not if youre a Mac user :(
Tomorrow may come, so lets live today.

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som[e]
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Post by som[e] » Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:39 pm

as for making the beats sound more like a real drummer, i would suggest looking at some drum sheet music. it looks almost like a step sequencer already anyways. There are some techniques real drummers use that you should keep in mind when programming midi drums, mainly volume control and odd note lengths. That means playing with velocity (if it's mapped to gain), a straight bar of 1/16 hi hats can be given a lot of awesomeness with proper velocity alterations. About the odd note lengths, if I were to ever score the best stuff I come up with while jamming it would be filled with dotted notes and dotted rests and it would take a mathematician to figure out how to divide it into bars, which is why I never score it (haha). In other words, dotted elements and accents are your friends, love them like jesus.

note: this is written from the perspective of an experienced drummer, not midi programmer, but I imagine it transfers.

dru
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Post by dru » Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:24 am

See that's where a padcontroller is better for this type of thing. It's harder to get a good 'ghost' beat sound out of a midi keyboard. With a sensitive pad controller like a Korg padKONTROL it's very easy to do.

Otherwise, look into EZDrummer or Addictive Drums. EZDrummer has a much easier interface and there are plenty of preset midi clips you can drag into a MIDI channel in Live, then edit it using the piano roll.

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