Help: real-time loop in sync

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jnd
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Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:49 pm

Help: real-time loop in sync

Post by jnd » Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:06 pm

Hi

I am trying to use Ableton Live on mac os x (intel) computer to make a loop station to use in a real-time performance.

But I am unable to solve a sync problem. I can´t program the loops to play in sync with the first loop recorded.

I guess that to solve this problem:
- the duration of every clip has to be a multiple integer of the duration of the first recorded clip.
- all the clips should start at the same point

I have seen that other people had this problem, but i don't seem to find a solution anywhere.
Maybe i should use a specific Plug-In...? Witch?

I would appreciate if someone could point me in the right direction.
Thanks for your time!

Ana

kimyo
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Post by kimyo » Sun Aug 19, 2007 8:55 pm

it sounds like you may not have quantize on, or it may be set to a small value.

if quantize is on and set for say, 1 measure, every loop you record will start in time, and you can use loops of any number of measures, of course if you want to have it all line up you'd choose multiples like 2,4,8.

this is handy:
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20174

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:50 am

I made a loop patch in max/msp that helps with this
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=70559

it works in the FREE max/msp runtime environment, check the top of the thread for details. I've been using it for a few weeks, works great, I'm happy with the result.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, POD500HDX, JX305, Nova
soundcloud.com/tone-deft

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:50 am

I made a loop patch in max/msp that helps with this
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=70559

it works in the FREE max/msp runtime environment, check the top of the thread for details. I've been using it for a few weeks, works great, I'm happy with the result.

please let me know how it works for you, I can tweak it further.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, POD500HDX, JX305, Nova
soundcloud.com/tone-deft

jnd
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:49 pm

Post by jnd » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:19 am

Hi Tone

Thanks for your answer.
It's great that you solved it yourself...i am disappointed with the looper plug-ins on the market.
I really want to try your loop patch. But I can not open the .mxf file in max-msp runtime. I am running mac os x 10.4.10 and max-msp runtime 4.6.3.
Could you please help me?

Thanks again,

Ana

jnd
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:49 pm

Post by jnd » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:26 am

Hi Kymio

Thanks for your answer.
But having quantize set to a higher value didn't solved the problem.
Have you tried Tone Deft loop patch?

Thanks again

Ana

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:46 pm

jnd wrote:Hi Tone

Thanks for your answer.
It's great that you solved it yourself...i am disappointed with the looper plug-ins on the market.
I really want to try your loop patch. But I can not open the .mxf file in max-msp runtime. I am running mac os x 10.4.10 and max-msp runtime 4.6.3.
Could you please help me?

Thanks again,

Ana
that's really bizarre, I'm using the same 4.6.3 on PC and there's nothing tricky about the patch, I used basic, standard parts to make it. the max/msp forum might be able to help, it's my first patch, I'm a n00b at max and still learning.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, POD500HDX, JX305, Nova
soundcloud.com/tone-deft

jnd
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:49 pm

Post by jnd » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:04 pm

Hi tone

Since I could not open your patch...i was trying to program one myself.
Could you give me some pointers of how you did yours?
Is it to much to ask you to send me your patch open, on .pat format?

Thanks for everithing!

Ana

dj superflat
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Post by dj superflat » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:07 pm

try mobius.

Tone Deft
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Post by Tone Deft » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:10 pm

jnd wrote:Hi tone

Since I could not open your patch...i was trying to program one myself.
Could you give me some pointers of how you did yours?
Is it to much to ask you to send me your patch open, on .pat format?

Thanks for everithing!

Ana
\
no problem, tonight or tomorrow. there's 1 more tweak I want to do but I made it to share. I think on page 2 of that thread I replied to forge and laid out how it works basically it's

note on
delay 20ms (or any small amount)
note off - Live records
delay for the length of global quantize at the specified bpm
note on
delay 20ms
note off - send command to play the recorded loop

try it with a mouse, click to record, once it starts recording hit the clip's triangle box to send a play command.
"Obsession is a great substitute for talent." - Steve Martin on learning the banjo

Dell Inspiron 15 7000, Live 10.1, Win10 Home, Edirol UA101, APC40, Remote SL, SPD-SX, mic, POD500HDX, JX305, Nova
soundcloud.com/tone-deft

jnd
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:49 pm

Post by jnd » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:29 pm

hi....

looking forward to receive your patch and test it.
i am going nuts trying to figure this out.

thks

Ana

kimyo
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Post by kimyo » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:54 am

in preferences/record-warp-launch is loop/warp short samples on auto?

how are you triggering the start/stop points of the clip? (the keyboard is very handy for that, (stolen from motherbrain) for track1 use 'a', track2 's', track3 'd', etc. use A or S or D etc as stop clips on the associated tracks. use q, w, e...or Q, W, E... to turn efx on and off on each track)

are you starting your first loop against a metronome or drum beat?

when do things get out of sync? is the first loop good on its own?

try a setup similar to this, it's very efficient:

Image

jnd
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Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:49 pm

Post by jnd » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:12 am

Hi

Thanks for all the answers! This is a battle ... but i think that may i am getting closer to the end... m - maybe ...

kimyo wrote:in preferences/record-warp-launch is loop/warp short samples on auto?
It is on the unwarped one shot mode. Do you think it should be on warped mode?
kimyo wrote:how are you triggering the start/stop points of the clip?


I am using a midi controller.

kimyo wrote:are you starting your first loop against a metronome or drum beat?
no...my goal is to be able to record the first loop freely. With no tempo, quantization or duration restrictions. And then have the following clips synchronized with the first one recorded.

Yesterday i finally solved the syncing to the first loop problem by using a plug-In called Augustus. It is the most unpractical thing...but it solved the issue by calculating the tempo according with the first loop duration, and then feeding live that tempo through external midi clock.

I would like to try mobius as dj superflat adviced, but i am on a mac. So today i will try to learn how to use SooperLoooper, maybe there is a cleaner way to do this.

Is any of you using SooperLooper with Live?

Thanks again and Cheers!

dj superflat
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Post by dj superflat » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:24 pm

unlike something like mobius, i don't think there's a way in live to record a loop of whatever duration you want -- without quantization -- and then have that loop length determine the lengths of all others (whether same length or multiples) unless you stop and use that initial loop to set tempo, then quantize, etc.

put another way, if you use quantize and play along to the click, you can cut all loops perfectly (to some multiple of quantize) and they'll stay in sync. but if you just play a loop of some random length, live's still going to be going by the tempo and quantize settings so you'll almost certainly drift out of sync.

this is actually why i use mobius, others use augustus, loopylama, angstrolooper, etc.

kimyo
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Post by kimyo » Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:38 am

no...my goal is to be able to record the first loop freely. With no tempo, quantization or duration restrictions. And then have the following clips synchronized with the first one recorded.
aha, now i understand.

an external solution like augustus (or perhaps, if money is no object, a lexicon jam-man or boss rc-50 loopstation) is required to calc the bpm and send it off to live.

if you're open to starting against a click track (you could easily mute it with a foot pedal) everything becomes so much easier. if you're looping onstage, you probably want to use in-ear monitors anyway, which could be setup to allow only you to hear the click.

i know that you lose a certain amount of flexibility.

what instrument are you looping?

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