Ableton DJing but more mixing involved.

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Ruso
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Ableton DJing but more mixing involved.

Post by Ruso » Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:44 pm

One thing that I never understood about ableton dj's is the fact that they prewarp everything... all you gotta do is crossfade.... I never saw any fun in that so back in the day when I was djing in ableton I made sure that I only put the first warp marked in a track after determaning the tempo of the track..... this way you can juggle the first warp marker back and fourth to "align" or beat match the tracks by ear still.... you can also midi learn this warp marker .


thought I'd share for those of you who feel djing in ableton is too noobish at times (no offence but it really is)

alien factory
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Post by alien factory » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:49 pm

sorry Ruso, but if you think Djing in 2007 is just up to mixing two tracks to the right tempo, I think you're lost...

I always thought DJ's that only mix two tracks (that other artists produced) were overrated the last 10 years...

Especially when using Live you should take the advantage and get something different out of the given tracks. Live has so many features that can make DJing different from those who still just mix two tracks...

sorry for my opinion, but I'm bored of traditional DJing.

cheers

Stefan
Macbook Pro 2.5 Ghz, Intel Core 2 Duo, 2GB RAM, LIVE 8.1, Novation SL37, APC40, M-Audio Firewire410, ProTools 8 LE, Reason 4, Waves Native Power Pack, Music Production Toolkit 2, Stylus RMX, NI Komplete&Kore

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hambone1
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Post by hambone1 » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:00 pm

If I wanted to waste my time beatmatching, I'd use record players. My 11-year old can do that.

I'd rather be playing Impulse percussion, dropping in loops, doing video & lighting, on-the-fly remixes/mashups, surround mixing, etc... all live in Live.

BTW, I've automated the crossfader, too. IMO, there are far more creative things to do than pushing a fader across.

It's all with prewarped tracks... that's noobish Ableton Live DJing for ya! :oops:

andydes
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Post by andydes » Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:38 pm

Even when mixing with records, beat matching is only a very small part of the mixing. The easy part some might say.

Most important is the track selection, plus the tracks have to be phrased correctly, then when it's in, it's the manipulation of the eqs and sometimes subtle use of effects that make the mix, not just the cross fader.

And that's just two tracks, stick a bunch of loops, drum machines and virtual instruments into the equation and see how busy you get.

tcho100
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Post by tcho100 » Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:14 pm

Nothing wrong with just using two decks and two pieces of vinyl. Much more to it than simple crossfade, Ableton is unfortunately pretty sterile and samey for DJ sets IMO. I could get my 3 year old nephew to mix with it.

lipidfish
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Post by lipidfish » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:38 pm

I guess my thing about DJing with Live is how i don't feel free to improvise with a track that just pops into my mind during a set.

Also, Since I don't trust the auto warping feature, I require 5 minutes minimum to prep a track to the point it will be useful for me - and that won't ever happen on the fly!

For this reason I prefer using NI's Traktor 3. I've been able to let it analyze my entire library, and for the most part they're all good to go. I really value the ability to pick and track at any time from my library of 10,000 + songs.

Live works better if I can pre-determine a set of songs, but that's not often the case.

particle
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Post by particle » Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:04 am

with the 2 bars of music law thing that says something along the lines of being able to use 2 bars of music from any song for your songs without getting in trouble, and the fact that laptop audio djing software eixsts, its silly not to use the laptop. you can turn all of the most intnese parts of like 30 songs into 1 song. and instead of using all of your time to guestimate the accurate tempo, you can play with all kinds of crazy effect chains and stuff like that to make it even more warped out sounding than the original artist made it. push the limits of technology everyone! guitarists used to make fun of how cheezy synthesizers are...back in the day........so now dj's are making fun of how cheezy laptops are becasue they are replacing the heavy vinyl you gotta lug around and melts if you arent careful and you can focus on making it as intricate as possible instead of making sure the tempo is matched every time you want to mix a beat with another beat. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

hambone1
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Post by hambone1 » Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:50 am

tcho100 wrote:Nothing wrong with just using two decks and two pieces of vinyl. Much more to it than simple crossfade, Ableton is unfortunately pretty sterile and samey for DJ sets IMO. I could get my 3 year old nephew to mix with it.
lipidfish wrote:I guess my thing about DJing with Live is how i don't feel free to improvise with a track that just pops into my mind during a set.

Also, Since I don't trust the auto warping feature, I require 5 minutes minimum to prep a track to the point it will be useful for me - and that won't ever happen on the fly!

For this reason I prefer using NI's Traktor 3. I've been able to let it analyze my entire library, and for the most part they're all good to go. I really value the ability to pick and track at any time from my library of 10,000 + songs.

Live works better if I can pre-determine a set of songs, but that's not often the case.
Live ain't for everyone. If you're not going to use the innovative and creative features that Live offers over 'traditional' DJing, programs like Traktor or record players are probably better for what you do.

Nothing wrong with that!

Ruso
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Post by Ruso » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:17 pm

dropping loops and using new sounds in music is not mixing, it is probably more of remixing which is not what I'm talking about....

what I was saying is I've seen way too many gigs where the abletonian dj has two tracks loaded with prewarped mp3's and uses either an external mixer or a cheap ass midi controller for mixing....

hambone1
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Post by hambone1 » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:24 pm

Ruso wrote:what I was saying is I've seen way too many gigs where the abletonian dj has two tracks loaded with prewarped mp3's and uses either an external mixer or a cheap ass midi controller for mixing....
So? What's wrong with that? It's just DJing... playing somebody else's music. AFAIK, there's no rule book. And what does the cost of the MIDI controller have to do with anything?

IMO, it's all about what's pumping out of the loudspeakers. How it gets there is irrelevant to most people, apart from perhaps the insecure DJs in the crowd.

djshiva
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Post by djshiva » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:33 am

i always find these discussion interesting. the idea that you cannot "improvise" using live is a fallacy. i don't set up my sets ahead of time, although everything is warped ahead of time, obviously. it takes me a about a minute to warp a tune, and maybe 30 secs to set some loop points or multiple clips. then i have a cue channel where i can pre-listen as i go. i have even warped tunes in the middle of a set because i had not done it beforehand and i decided i wanted to play it.

i drag and drop tracks into the channels as i dj. if i change my mind about the direction of the set, i just pick a different track.

i have spun records for over 12 years, and still really enjoy that as well. but i have been having a hell of a lot of fun with live too. i don't even use the crossfader in ableton. i have volume sliders on my controller that i use like upfaders on a mixer. i can do "double copy" tricks that way as well as beatmatch with records with the pitch set on another slider.

i am just happy dappy that people find djing records interesting (i do as well), but i find it amusing that so many are set on defining djing according to a very small set of parameters that, at the end of the day, don't matter to people on the dancefloor...they just matter to us nerdy types.

close your eyes and stand in front of the speakers. that's how you know who's a good dj and who isn't.

the fact that there are MANY more ways to dj now than ever is a GOOD thing. djing was always limited by the tools we had, thus people played records. it wasn't because THAT is all there is to djing, it was the limitations imposed by the available technology. now that those limitations are disappearing, i find there are more creative possibilities than ever, and i for one, am taking full advantage of it.

djs stand out because of their musical creativity and their ability to move a dancefloor, not by the technologies they use. a good dj is a good dj. period.
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Ruso
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Post by Ruso » Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:47 pm

hambone1 wrote:
Ruso wrote:what I was saying is I've seen way too many gigs where the abletonian dj has two tracks loaded with prewarped mp3's and uses either an external mixer or a cheap ass midi controller for mixing....
So? What's wrong with that? It's just DJing... playing somebody else's music. AFAIK, there's no rule book. And what does the cost of the MIDI controller have to do with anything?

IMO, it's all about what's pumping out of the loudspeakers. How it gets there is irrelevant to most people, apart from perhaps the insecure DJs in the crowd.

so what you're saying is that it doesn't matter if I sit at home prearrange a four hour mix perfectly, with all the effects, hit the play button in a live situation and have myself a cup of coffe and chillax and go dance to it?

cause I'm saying I see too many people doing close to this...

hambone1
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Post by hambone1 » Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:00 pm

Ruso wrote:
hambone1 wrote:
Ruso wrote:what I was saying is I've seen way too many gigs where the abletonian dj has two tracks loaded with prewarped mp3's and uses either an external mixer or a cheap ass midi controller for mixing....
So? What's wrong with that? It's just DJing... playing somebody else's music. AFAIK, there's no rule book. And what does the cost of the MIDI controller have to do with anything?

IMO, it's all about what's pumping out of the loudspeakers. How it gets there is irrelevant to most people, apart from perhaps the insecure DJs in the crowd.

so what you're saying is that it doesn't matter if I sit at home prearrange a four hour mix perfectly, with all the effects, hit the play button in a live situation and have myself a cup of coffe and chillax and go dance to it?

cause I'm saying I see too many people doing close to this...
How can prewarping tracks be compared to pre-arranging a four-hour set?

I warp every track beforehand. My crossfader is automated. I choose tracks one at a time as I'm DJ/VJing, depending on the crowd, vibe, requests, visuals, energy/tempo flow, etc.

Live is just another DJ tool. It's what pumps out of the loudspeakers that counts. IMO, it doesn't really matter how it gets there. It only matters to the geeks/DJs in the crowd. I'd rather dance to a decent mix compilation CD on the PA than some posing DJ, cocked-head-holding-headphone-between-ear-and--shoulder beatmatching with poorly-chosen tracks while tweaking cheesy and overused effects and EQ.

But if you get a buzz out of searching for 1.1.1 each time you launch a track, go for it! It gives you something to do, I guess.

Michael-SW
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Post by Michael-SW » Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:45 pm

I don't DJ. When I go to a club I want to listen to some good beats. I couldn't care less what technology the DJ uses. If he is extremely good/experienced he could probably play them from his IPod while having a smoke and I would neither notice nor care.

I do realize that in most instances it is good to be able to match your tunes on the fly to the crowd, but the fact that the DJ beatmatches on his CD deck is rather irrelevant to me.

synthpopkid
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Post by synthpopkid » Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:42 pm

alien factory wrote:sorry Ruso, but if you think Djing in 2007 is just up to mixing two tracks to the right tempo, I think you're lost...
DJing is still mostly about mixing 2 tracks at the same tempo. Most of my favourite DJs (Ellen Allien, Adam Beyer, Luciano) do just that.

Last time I saw Richie Hawtin he was also doing that.

The last thing we need is a load of people playing 20 songs at the same time through a bunch of Beat Repeat FX. Jesus.

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