Pro Logic 8

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neyko
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Post by neyko » Wed May 14, 2008 1:06 am

See your stories help a lot. Three - you are putting more demands than I do -
Up till now - because of the limits of Ableton running on XP, I have been freezing tracks to avoid clips and clicks -
I have been recording vocal and guitar and otherwise been using vsts and samples. I am not recording more than 8 tracks as of now. And usually six are playing.

Now I have been using my macbook and soon will be using the iMac - and I know from the macbook and Leopard that things are going to be even more stable on the iMac.

Do I want to run Logic 8 or do I want to invest into something like this going into Ableton:

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Octane-main.html

http://www.amazon.com/Mackie-Onyx-400F- ... B000CR4NV8

http://www.proaudioreview.com/pages/s.0026/t.7012.html



I currently use a a AT-404 and Kel mic into dbx 386 going into a Lexicon Omega - usb'd to the computer.

Ok, now I am going in two different directions - but the quesiton comes down to -
Will I get just as good sound quality from mic to firewire preamp direct to Ableton rather than using Logic with the chain ending in the Lexicon through USB?
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three
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Post by three » Wed May 14, 2008 1:57 am

neyko wrote:Do I want to run Logic 8 or do I want to invest into something like this going into Ableton:

Ok, now I am going in two different directions - but the quesiton comes down to -
Will I get just as good sound quality from mic to firewire preamp direct to Ableton rather than using Logic with the chain ending in the Lexicon through USB?
The number one hard and fast rule of sound engineering is shit-in-shit-out.

The relative qualities are determined by the components responsible for managing media disruption. so that would be air -> electrical current and electrical current -> digital audio data for your voice and either the same for your guitar if it's mic'd or pickups -> electricity and again electricity to digital.

once the sound is in your machine, i.e. inside the border of the soundcard, logic and live or ardour or protools or whatever you use to record is seeing the same data.

so the important parts in that chain are the mic, the mic input (preamp, soundcard, whatever you end up using) and the line input for your geetar.

i don't do almost anything which requires input except for occaisonally hooking an old gibson into my soundcard to record sounds which will be heavily processed so the quality is less relevant, so i can't counsel you much on what hardware to get for recording. (Other than saying that that's where you should invest. If you can afford RME get it, if not move down the pricelist till you find a spot you and your wallet can agree on.)

As far as guitar goes, a buddy of mine moved to china and left his Guitar Rig with me, the hardware is quite nice, and the fx portion is excellent. I don't know anything about microphones. I usually record vocals with the headset i use for skype. If it sounds like a person at the end if fucked up anyway so it's not a big deal.

On the software side of things (as well, really, as on the hardware side) you want to determine your ideal-someday-situation and then figure out the steps to get there. I personally think live and logic is a perfect combination. If I did more with recording sound from vocalists/instrumentalists I would certainly look at ProTools rather than Logic. This is one of those strategic questions - if you think you want to go that way, you'll probably want to get DigiDesign hardware, or at least an interface, bundled with ProTools LE to get a feel for it. If you go with a different DAW, then you have more freedom to choose with.

I hope that was clear, it's getting quite late here in Gemany and my sobriety is suffering the logical consequences.

Chris

kraze
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Post by kraze » Wed May 14, 2008 1:41 pm

I'm actually using the multi outputs options with samplers alot in Logic when it comes to drums/fx while composing and it works pretty good for me to be honest. You can use the auxes to mix it anyways if you want. It's very different from how i work with Live, but using both is definently the key.

I'm also quite fond of importing bounces/stems from Live because it gives me a bit more solid ground and less options but still enough to make it fit into the track.

And Logics audio routing system has made me use Reaktor alot more since it's just so quick and effective.

neyko
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Post by neyko » Wed May 14, 2008 3:23 pm

kraze wrote:
I'm also quite fond of importing bounces/stems from Live because it gives me a bit more solid ground and less options but still enough to make it fit into the track.
Can you tell me more about this? Do Ableton tracks import directly into Logic tracks? I looked in the Logic book at the Apple store and there was no mention of Ableton. This would be a big plus in deciding to go with Logic.
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three
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Post by three » Wed May 14, 2008 3:55 pm

kraze wrote:I'm actually using the multi outputs options with samplers alot in Logic when it comes to drums/fx while composing and it works pretty good for me to be honest. You can use the auxes to mix it anyways if you want. It's very different from how i work with Live, but using both is definently the key.

I'm also quite fond of importing bounces/stems from Live because it gives me a bit more solid ground and less options but still enough to make it fit into the track.

And Logics audio routing system has made me use Reaktor alot more since it's just so quick and effective.
I route (and sum) my sets in logic and live the exact same way. The kit goes to four buses which then go to a single kit bus, the bass sounds have a bus, the lead sounds have a bus, and depending how many other voices are playing eith another bus for 'the rest' or another couple of them.

I try to apply and plugins I as far down the trail as possible as well - the more instruments sharing the same treatment the more they sound like they should be together.
neyko wrote:
kraze wrote:
I'm also quite fond of importing bounces/stems from Live because it gives me a bit more solid ground and less options but still enough to make it fit into the track.
Can you tell me more about this? Do Ableton tracks import directly into Logic tracks? I looked in the Logic book at the Apple store and there was no mention of Ableton. This would be a big plus in deciding to go with Logic.
I'd also be interested to hear kraze's experiences as well, but I haven't gotten a reliable automatic rewire setup or whatever working up until now. But it's also possible that i've just been too impatient with Logic.

There's no specific integration, but there is something called rewire which lets audio programs hook into one another and stream samples between one another.

As far as the relationship between the two, I write in Live, and then usually tend to mixdown in Logic. Tracks don't move from Live to Logic until they're 85% done. Where it's practical I just take the presets and MIDI over to Logic, sometimses soundfiles but I try to limit it to MIDI and presets. I then recreate a lot of track from the group up. But because all the experimentation has already been done, and I know where the tracks's supposed to end up it's both faster the second time and I at least think it produces better results. I've really been on a crusade of late to eliminate effects to the extent possible in order to then use just a couple (you can't get around reverb unless your target audience is made up of robots, for example) but I try to use those effects sparingly.

I'm hoping to spend some time this weeking trying to get them talking. Theoretically it should work, I suspect I just haven't gotten the environment routing in Logic right yet.

Digital Network
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Post by Digital Network » Sat May 17, 2008 9:29 pm

Hello,

My main DAW is LOGIC 8.
I'm working on a tech-house track and for the first time, I put LIVE (rewire) in LOGIC.

I use LIVE to create the rythms and the strange variations by adjusting the audio clips so that they play in a random way. Very, Very cool like that.

Drums, synths, Bass, Lead, ... are created in Logic.

I certainly will use OPERATOR in order to create heavy and punchy kick.

Live and Logic rocks !

Cheers,
Vincent
Soft : Ableton 8 - Logic 9
Hard : Machinedrum - Monomachine - Nord 2X - Nord 3 - DSI Poly/Evolver KB - Moog LP - JP-8080 - Waldorf Pulse
Summing : Mixdream XP

evanb
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Post by evanb » Sun May 18, 2008 5:11 am

I do not play out at all I am more interested in producing tracks for fun for myself. I been using ableton about 1 month now and I am at the point where I can get around. Would logic be a better choice for someone like me with what I plan to use it for?

Would it be that difficult to switch at this point?

three
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Post by three » Sun May 18, 2008 9:45 pm

evanb wrote:I do not play out at all I am more interested in producing tracks for fun for myself. I been using ableton about 1 month now and I am at the point where I can get around. Would logic be a better choice for someone like me with what I plan to use it for?

Would it be that difficult to switch at this point?
Did you read the rest of the thread?

The consensus has been Live to write music, and Logic to master it.

I would recommend staying with Live until you feel you outgrow parts of it. Logic is vastly more complicated.

HTH,

Chris

miqueas1
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Re: Pro Logic 8

Post by miqueas1 » Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:10 pm

I use it for mastering... I export all of my tracks from Live at once... then import them into logic... I make sure that in Logic I will set the tempo to match the song in Ableton...

I then go through and cut out the spaces of the audio.... I then color code everything and put it together...

Since I have been doing this.. my sound and music is about 100 times better...

I also d/l the DVD on MacProVideo about mixing electronic music in Logic.....and poof.... things are amazing..

I do not use logic to compose music that much.. I have a few tracks.. but I have been dedicated to Live for over 2 years.. and it is just soo much better when putting together a track...

If Deadmau5 does it.. I figure it must make some sense! :)
neyko wrote:Does anyone here use Pro Logic 8? I would like to hear thoughts on it?


I did a quick search and unless I missed it I have not seen this topic.
Ableton Live Suite 8, Launchpad, Apc40, Touch-able, Griid, Minimoog, Sylenth1, Nexxus2, Maschine Mikro, all Ableton Audio Plugins, Recyle, Waves Mastering Plug Ins. http://www.soundcloud.com/micahjames

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:12 am

neyko wrote:See I have no problem working with Ableton as a DAW. I think people have been brainwashed into thinking that is is not a capable "rock & pop" recording unit.
I thought Logic might be able to give me more sonic depth with the surround sound and the ability to edit noisy tracks and the like.


I would still like to hear more thoughts. I am beginning to think a new A/D D/A converter like the Echo Layla might serve me better than Logic.

Keep sharing your thoughts I'd like to make up my mind by this weekend.
Don't get it, if you have no problem with Live as a DAW, then why bother adding another layer of abstraction? and this is coming from someone who owns Logic, Live, Digital Performer, Reason, ReNoise, and Kore. :oops:
I have to say that if I hadn't started off on a traditional DAW and moved to Live, then I would think it best to just add things that you need as you go. Get a noise reduction suite for Live instead. The A/D converters in the X-Station aren't bad, M-Audio or Mackie might actually be a step down. If you NEED the top quality converters go with RME, Metric Halo, or Apogee etc.

naturemorte
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Post by naturemorte » Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:41 am

I've been struggling a bit with logic--got it and live within a week of one another, although I had some experience with live 5. pretty new to digital audio in general, and I've found Live just a much more flexible tool for for writing and editing.

Logic is just f'ing illogical in so many ways.

for my first big commercial music job, I gave myself a test of writing and recording half in logic, half in live, as a learning experiment. I did three hip-hop type tracks in live and three technoish tracks in logic, plus an "action movie music" style thing using live. the Live tracks came out much more sophisticated and nuanced, with richer sound--even an orchestral track with EIC instruments that the client really liked. I was able to integrate Kontakt and Reason effortlessly in Live, but never strayed far from a few synths in Logic--it just took too much time and energy.

the big areas where I've often thrown my hands up in the air with Logic are with cutting and pasting, timestretching, routing, envelopes and the lack of documentation for the VI's/steep learning curve. a lot of this has to do with my workflow (i usually make drum loops on hardware recorders and then cut 'em up) but Logic has been very unfriendly.

with cutting and pasting and "regions", it's a total time killer. the ableton grid makes quick cuts and repetitions a two-step process vs. a 5-stepper in Logic. I'm probably missing shortcuts but the manual is simply overstuffed and the full of obscure language. timestretching too just isn't as flexible as Live, nor does it sound anywhere as good. duplicating regions or song sections with envelopes can throw everything out of whack if you're not careful, and the overcomplicated effects and instruments are more difficult to automate, much less midi map.

with Live instruments, I'm not crazy about presets but I can hear a sound and quickly tweak it to find the instrument I want to hear--the instrument design is more industrial, geared to quick implementation. some of the Logic instruments look like a space station crossed with a tax form. they're fun to play around with but I can go for hours without ever getting closer to the sound I hear in my head.

making a drum kit from your own samples in Logic is a massive headache, and I've yet to figure out how to route, say, just the snare to a reverb aux while keeping everything else dry. sure it can be done, but I couldn't pick it up in the time I had to make it happen.

it's true that you do get some powerful stuff in that massive box--things that normally might cost the price of the whole suite (usable vocoder and pitch correction, compressors, space designer, a few decent instruments) and it's better for wave editing than Live, obviously, plus you get soundtrack pro. but on the instrument side of things, outside of the really synthy sounds, Logic is useless--especially for getting anything remotely analog-sounding from software instruments. the horns are especially pitiable.

of course I'm on a powerbook so resources are limited but what I can achieve with the power I have is a lot more impressive and enjoyable with Live.

Machinesworking
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Post by Machinesworking » Wed Aug 06, 2008 7:14 am

naturemorte wrote: and the overcomplicated effects and instruments are more difficult to automate, much less midi map.
Agree with most of what you say except this part, automation in Logic is way easier IMO, as you can set zooming into a track vertically much quicker, and go beyond 128 parameters. Logic's Arrange page is far more advanced than Lives, but Logic has crappy routing compared, and no Session View! 8) Mixer wise, logic wins for easy readability, what with colored tracks, and the ability to add .png images to a track. Plus Logic is much lighter on the CPU.

Anyway, in the end I stay in Live most of the time as well. Logic isn't set up for playing in a band, and Session View is just too much fun! Also, Digital Performer is almost as set up for live performance as Live is, (easy to make long sets of songs with a Virtual Rack of VI's etc.) so Logic will probably be getting the boot from my studio within a year.

FORMAT
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Post by FORMAT » Wed Aug 06, 2008 3:05 pm

I think a lot of editing for composition is just easier in Logic. The new version is a big step forward in terms of workflow and efficiency. I used to work with Ableton for making tracks; even though it's doable, I much prefer one of the traditional sequencers.

R.

966sf
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Post by 966sf » Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:45 pm

I think that every DAW has its strengths and weaknesses. So if you're proficient at one, maybe you can use another to pick up where your main DAW lacks.

For example, I think Logic is still lightyears ahead of the competition in terms of editing MIDI. So for people who use a lot of software instruments, it's probably the best. But for some reason, Logic has always lacked in the audio editing capabilities even in Logic 8. Logic still lacks that Elastic Audio concept that Ableton and PT are so good at.

So like someone said before, Live rewired into Logic is a great way to work. Logic has to be the master, though. It doesn't like playing slave. Out of all the rewire combinations, this is one of the most efficient. These two programs just work well together.

By itself though, I do think Logic 8 is a pretty buggy program. I use a Digidesign interface because I also work in Pro Tools, and Logic sometimes has a communication breakdown with the Digi Core Audio Manager. Because of this and maybe some other hardware issues. I get some pretty frequent crashes (at least once a week). I also found that on Tiger (OSX 10.4) there are even more crashes. I guess Apple only wants Logic 8 to work with Leopard. I also tried Logic in TDM mode and it was pretty awesome... until it crashed there too. Pretty cool concept though that Logic will run on Pro Tools HD hardware and even do RTAS plugins.

This is just my experience with both those DAWs.

Everyone here knows that Live is awesome, so if you can get in the habit of saving frequently, upgrade to Logic and use both in tandem! woo. If you haven't tried it out, damn it's a monster.
Macbook Pro 15" Core Duo 2.16ghz 2GB ram; Live 6.0.10; Live 7.0.7; Digi 003 Rack; Novation Remote Zero SL;Faderfox micromodul LC2, Korg Kontrol49; M-Audio Trigger Finger

Mr Lager
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Post by Mr Lager » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:14 pm

To my ears
the mix downs i do in Logic, using the same audio files, sound so much clearer than in ableton
Im usually the one to say its not what you use its your mixing ability
but im using the same mixing knowledge and tools/techniques in both daws and logic just sounds cleaner.
Still the sound im getting from Live is nothing to grumble about ;)

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