less bass in high samplerates?

Der_Makrophag · Post by **Der_Makrophag** » Fri May 16, 2008 8:09 pm

Hi there.

I just experienced a (fo rme) crazy thing.
I wanted to save a self-made Sample (just one long note playing a heavy distortet hardcore-bassdrum) and treid to do this with the highest quality possible, because I wanted to use this in other track. So i set bitdepth to 32 and samplerate to 192000. But it seems all bass frequencies are removed form the sound? I treid again with 44100 and all was fine.
Question: Is this usual, or might this have something to do with the routing through 5 tracks and a lot of Lioves distortion-Plugins (Saturator, Vinyl-Distortion).

I did not try on other sounds, or did not recognize it yet. But since I'm not very smart about DSP and things, I rather ask here for some explanation?

Thank you!

Der_Makrophag · Post by **Der_Makrophag** » Fri May 16, 2008 8:14 pm

Just tried and found that the same problem occurs in other live-Sets...

The higher the samplerate, the lesser the bass.

Lo-Fi Massahkah · Post by **Lo-Fi Massahkah** » Sat May 17, 2008 3:03 pm

Sounds strange. Keep us posted.

.m

Der_Makrophag · Post by **Der_Makrophag** » Sat May 17, 2008 6:21 pm

Hi!

Yeah, it IS strange.

Just tried it again with the "Pulse Bass" Sampler-Patch (Synth -> Bass). The Problem is the same, also with 16 bit depth (no dither).
You can really see the low bass decrease with "Spectrum".

I turned all render options off (normalise etc...), still the same. I will do further testing and keep you informed, as long as nobody has an idea.

Der_Makrophag · Post by **Der_Makrophag** » Sat May 17, 2008 7:15 pm

Also choosing a different ASIO driver does not change a thing.

SO is this a bug or what???

subbasshead · Post by **subbasshead** » Sat May 17, 2008 11:04 pm

i know this is a different scenario but when recording at high sample rates
eg 96k 24 bit i've found there is more bass - its tighter & more present..

btw what youare doing is futile
if the original sample is 16 bit 44.1 then saving it in 32bit 192k
isnt going to make it sound any better...

Der_Makrophag · Post by **Der_Makrophag** » Sun May 18, 2008 10:27 am

Yes, thats clear, but when using effects on it or synthesized sounds, this would matter, right?

And there should anyway be no decrease in Quality with higher Quality? At least it should sound THE SAME.
Of course your Scenario is "normal", the Bass should be more precise and things, but not dissapear.

What I mean is: Sense does not matter here, I just want this to work normal...

Anyone got same problems with exporting Audio?

Der_Makrophag · Post by **Der_Makrophag** » Sun May 18, 2008 11:35 am

By the way, CONVERSION from 16 bit & 44100Hz to 32 bit & 192000 with Steinbergs Wavelab works well. No bass is lost here.

Der_Makrophag · Post by **Der_Makrophag** » Sun May 18, 2008 12:20 pm

Hi again.

I took screenshots of the spectrum analyser, playing three previously rendered loops at 32 bit depth. You see everything under 100 Hz and above -114 dB:

I also tried rendering with Reason 4, where everything is as it should be (although rendering here is restricted to 24 bit depth and 96 kHz).

Perhaps someone can move this to "bugs & problems"? Or am I making a mistake I did not yet think about?

Der_Makrophag · Post by **Der_Makrophag** » Tue May 20, 2008 3:37 pm

Can someone please move this to bugs and probs then?

Or can please someone check, if there are same problems on his machine???

This would e helpful!

andydes · Post by **andydes** » Tue May 20, 2008 4:33 pm

Now that's just crazy.

If this is a sythesised sound, how does the spectrum graph look before you sample at all?

Did you record onto another track? Was the routing set to post fx?

Have you tried freezing the track and comparing the spectrum of that?

Not that any of this will solve the problem, just trying to work out what's going on.

Der_Makrophag · Post by **Der_Makrophag** » Tue May 20, 2008 5:13 pm

Thank you for your reply!!!

As I said, I used a Sampler-Patch. I Did not test synthesized sounds yet, but I will do so, thanks to your idea. I geuss a pure sine would perhaps discover more.
There was nothing recorded to another Track, I also chose the Sampler-Track to render, and not the master.
Freezing did not come to my mind, too.

So I will do further testing. Hmpf this sucks...

But thank you!!!

stonee · Post by **stonee** » Tue May 20, 2008 5:14 pm

a 44100 sample does not convert equally into 96000.

i susepect you are running into sample interferance. when you convert audio, it has to be converted by a whole ratio, or it will mess up. i bet if you convert it to 48000, you will still have the same problem.

the 96000 is ok for your synths, as live renders them as such, but if your recording at 44100, that can't change easily.

realistically, you'd have to be super human to notice an increase in audio quality in anything over 48000/24 bit. even the difference beteween that and 44100/16 is barely there.

for reference, standard cd quality is 44100/16,
dvd quality is 48000/24.

IMO, rendering at anything over 48000/24 is just a waste of HD space, unless you plan to do some intense stretching.

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Tue May 20, 2008 5:29 pm

I think you should post a new thread in bugs and problems and link to this thread.
This looks very strange to me.
Upsampling should not cause such a huge drop in volume like that

Der_Makrophag · Post by **Der_Makrophag** » Tue May 20, 2008 5:49 pm

I made Reaktor giving out a 40 Hz sine-tone and started another testing period:
Everything seems to be fine here. What I found out is, that an Utility witch "DC" on works differently on different samplerates, in the way described above. Although I just can't remember having used this in my former tests (perhaps this is the mistake, I have one in my default Live-Set), I will try again with the Sampler-Patch.

Of course, this does not make sense for hearing purposes. But there are two things that matter to me:
1. I do not want an error in my system (software/hardware) that could cause errors somewhere else...
2. For further audio editing (as x-times said above!)

I'll keep you up to date. I hope it was the Utility doeing that...