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 Post subject: Re: Why I'm leaving Live for Bitwig.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:34 am 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm
Posts: 6166
older_fart wrote:
and many many of the opensource tools that companies like Live use and then extend come from the open source world (for example PureData --> MaxMSP).


Wrong.

Max came first. Miller Puckett wrote Pd as an open source replacement for Max after IRCAM licensed it to Opcode as a commercial product..

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 Post subject: Re: Why I'm leaving Live for Bitwig.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:37 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:35 pm
Posts: 472
Location: UK
stringtapper wrote:
Wrong.


I think they meant Pd --> MSP, which isn't wrongy wrong. https://puredata.info/docs/faq/pdmaxjmax


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 Post subject: Re: Why I'm leaving Live for Bitwig.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:34 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm
Posts: 6166
lowshelf wrote:
stringtapper wrote:
Wrong.


I think they meant Pd --> MSP, which isn't wrongy wrong. https://puredata.info/docs/faq/pdmaxjmax


Yes, that part is true. The audio engine was prototyped in Pd first.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I'm leaving Live for Bitwig.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:00 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:14 am
Posts: 424
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Ok, so technically I'm not leaving Live for Bitwig just yet, but since a week I'm a proud and happy owner of the letter (bought Live 9 Suite in Jan '17) and I gotta say I'm impressed by how well-integrated and cohesive it is compared to Live. Some of the features standing out are:

- hybrid tracks and bounce-in-place - initially I only thought this will be useful for doing some complex off-line editing for segments of my otherwise MIDI tracks, but the side-effect of it is that I can use performance hungry VSTi-s and keep them as MIDI in Launcher, copy the clips to Arranger, bounce-in-place and they consume much less CPU; I know Live has freeze (& flatten) but it's great to be able to use it only for segments of the track - it's much faster, I can have it working on the same track, etc.

- modulators - at the beginning it's overwhelming and some simple things achieved easily in Live (e.g. modulating certain range of parameter or choosing chains in racks based on velocity, note or selector) require a bit more work and change of mindset in Bitwig, because it's one step lower in terms of abstracting those things; but once you get the hang of it it's so much more deep and flexible and eats no CPU in contrast to loading MaxForLive to just use simple LFO...

- no arbitrary restrictions to what you can and can't do in a specific view: editing of samples, automation / modulation, etc. can be done from either Launcher or Arranger

- layered editing of clips, i.e. I can see several MIDI and 1 (I think, haven't tested more?) audio clip overlaid over each other and can edit them in relation to each other,

- groups within groups, which is a blessing for effect-heavy music,

- ability to have both Launcher and Arranger side-by-side makes it easier to drag & drop clips between them and to combine playback from both views to test ideas on the fly,

- ability to have a proper, vertical mixer in Arranger with list of plugins on each channel (yes, I know the options.txt hack for the latter),

- properly working high-DPI screen support on Win10 - I don't have to choose anymore between Live's blurry GUI or properly sized VST windows! :)

- properly working zoom (CTRL+two fingers up/down) and much more intuitive scrolling with two fingers either vertically or horizontally,

- dedicated touch screen interface, with bigger controls, optimised layouts and some clever ideas - I'll probably stick to normal keyboard & trackpad on my Surface Pro 4, but you got to appreciate their work there which is likely geared towards live performance rather than studio work,

It's worth mentioning, that my workflow might be untypical for Live, because I use Session only as a storage for short ideas, whereas the real mixing and matching of those ideas to form a complete track takes place in Arrangement. Therefore, as such I don't 'jam' in Session nor record that 'jam' to the timeline. As a result I don't see a point for a controller like Push or Launchpad and instead prefer regular MIDI controller with 'normal' keys, pads and knobs. I don't use script for my controller (even though it is supported) and instead map everything manually, to get the control I need.

Hope Ableton is paying attention to what's happening in Bitwig, because lots of those things I mentioned are - or seem to be - simple fixes or additions, many of which have been requested for ages by now.


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 Post subject: Re: Why I'm leaving Live for Bitwig.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:21 pm 

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:08 pm
Posts: 73
Location: The Netherlands
My main laptop for everyday use is running Ubuntu, and I love it! Tried some musicsoftware on it, but could not steal my heart.....

It would be nice to have Live on Linux, but the next thing is drivers for hardware such as audio- and midi interfaces, not to speak of the many different controllers. All these vendors have to switch to a third OS for drivers and stuff.

If you like linux, why not use Apple, which is a sort of UNIX? Well for me it is to expensive for what you get. I don't make huge amounts of money on musicmaking - it's an expensive hobby for me.

I'm saving money right now for building a new PC, and for the money it will be more powerfull than a Mac of the same price. My current music PC is 8 yrs old now this month, and needs replacement.

The same music PC will be used for my wife when my new PC arrives. The "old" one gets a flavor of Linux, proberly Elementory OS, as it is simular in looks as Mac OS - what my wife is used to.

Linux is ready for DAW's - the rest of the bussiness ain't - which is a shame. It would be nice to have one flavor of Linux for music - supported by the DAW vendors alongside the hardware vendors. This MusicLinux could be a more then stable platform for musician. It is a cheaper way to realise good music "machines".

Right now I'm using Win7/64, and though it works fine, it ain't ideal. The Win and Mac OS'es have to many gadgets to be lightweight. And of course the more lightweight an OS is, the more resources we have for what we love most: making music!!!!

If DAW vendors could work together on this buildingblock OS, where all their product will work with, they would have a big advantage too: less problems for their helpdesks!

Just thinking out loud.....

Older_Fart: good luck, have lots of fun - and make beautifull music!!!!! Cheers!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Why I'm leaving Live for Bitwig.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:57 pm
Posts: 3567
Location: Another Green World
antic604 wrote:
Ok, so technically I'm not leaving Live for Bitwig just yet, but since a week I'm a proud and happy owner of the letter (bought Live 9 Suite in Jan '17) and I gotta say I'm impressed by how well-integrated and cohesive it is compared to Live. Some of the features standing out are:

- hybrid tracks and bounce-in-place - initially I only thought this will be useful for doing some complex off-line editing for segments of my otherwise MIDI tracks, but the side-effect of it is that I can use performance hungry VSTi-s and keep them as MIDI in Launcher, copy the clips to Arranger, bounce-in-place and they consume much less CPU; I know Live has freeze (& flatten) but it's great to be able to use it only for segments of the track - it's much faster, I can have it working on the same track, etc.

- modulators - at the beginning it's overwhelming and some simple things achieved easily in Live (e.g. modulating certain range of parameter or choosing chains in racks based on velocity, note or selector) require a bit more work and change of mindset in Bitwig, because it's one step lower in terms of abstracting those things; but once you get the hang of it it's so much more deep and flexible and eats no CPU in contrast to loading MaxForLive to just use simple LFO...

- no arbitrary restrictions to what you can and can't do in a specific view: editing of samples, automation / modulation, etc. can be done from either Launcher or Arranger

- layered editing of clips, i.e. I can see several MIDI and 1 (I think, haven't tested more?) audio clip overlaid over each other and can edit them in relation to each other,

- groups within groups, which is a blessing for effect-heavy music,

- ability to have both Launcher and Arranger side-by-side makes it easier to drag & drop clips between them and to combine playback from both views to test ideas on the fly,

- ability to have a proper, vertical mixer in Arranger with list of plugins on each channel (yes, I know the options.txt hack for the latter),

- properly working high-DPI screen support on Win10 - I don't have to choose anymore between Live's blurry GUI or properly sized VST windows! :)

- properly working zoom (CTRL+two fingers up/down) and much more intuitive scrolling with two fingers either vertically or horizontally,

- dedicated touch screen interface, with bigger controls, optimised layouts and some clever ideas - I'll probably stick to normal keyboard & trackpad on my Surface Pro 4, but you got to appreciate their work there which is likely geared towards live performance rather than studio work,

It's worth mentioning, that my workflow might be untypical for Live, because I use Session only as a storage for short ideas, whereas the real mixing and matching of those ideas to form a complete track takes place in Arrangement. Therefore, as such I don't 'jam' in Session nor record that 'jam' to the timeline. As a result I don't see a point for a controller like Push or Launchpad and instead prefer regular MIDI controller with 'normal' keys, pads and knobs. I don't use script for my controller (even though it is supported) and instead map everything manually, to get the control I need.

Hope Ableton is paying attention to what's happening in Bitwig, because lots of those things I mentioned are - or seem to be - simple fixes or additions, many of which have been requested for ages by now.


Thank you for posting this. Very informative.

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 Post subject: Re: Why I'm leaving Live for Bitwig.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:57 am 

Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Posts: 14108
C'mon guys, Live 10 will have most of the features of Bitwig and at least 3 more things too!!
2020 is gonna be a hell of a year!

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 Post subject: Re: Why I'm leaving Live for Bitwig.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:31 am 

Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:14 am
Posts: 424
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Angstrom wrote:
C'mon guys, Live 10 will have most of the features of Bitwig and at least 3 more things too!!
2020 is gonna be a hell of a year!


:D


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 Post subject: Re: Why I'm leaving Live for Bitwig.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:00 pm 

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:34 am
Posts: 5150
Angstrom wrote:
C'mon guys, Live 10 will have most of the features of Bitwig and at least 3 more things too!!
2020 is gonna be a hell of a year!


<Can-this-really-be-right? outrageous="on">

Yes, and Bitwig has gracefully agreed to stop their development too until then!

Quote:

--Dominik, Bitwig team

</Can-this-really-be-right?>

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