Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

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anybody human
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Re: Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

Post by anybody human » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:59 am

The pad/tablet category will most likely be huge, for books and Internet alone. Sooner or later, this device or another one they'll probably catch on in the coming years I would think.

Someone explained to me the other day that Flash is buggy/ faulty. Can't remember why but they seemed quite sure and I have no reason to doubt them.

Systems are closed for a time so companies can recoup manufacturing and developement costs. Sooner or later they open up as innovation upside of open systems starts to outweigh margin cost benefit of closed systems. Natural evolution. People should certainly still push for it but it will come in time.

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Re: Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

Post by beats me » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:02 am

LoopStationZebra wrote:And I don't know if you've really used shill in the correct sense. I mean, I'm not selling Flash or Flash services here, per se. But I do get your point. And it hurts. :cry: :cry: lol
I can only go by my use of the iPhone and while that error icon that comes up on every site where there's flash is kind of annoying, I never really take the iPhone seriously as a tool to surf the net. Also if it is video related I just convinced myself it really isn't all that important to view on such a small screen. Macs aren't exactly known as gaming computers so I don't really play any flash based web games either, nothing for me to miss there. I haven't looked in years.

I'm sure I'll probably have a different perception on an iPad, but as I am an Apple fanboy who didn't over fantasize about what this thing could do pre-announcement I can't really say I'm disappointed. It's pretty much exactly what I expected and anything more that it does or could do would just be a bonus.

If a big part of my creativity or income relied heavily on flash then, yeah, I probably would be disappointed.

But have ya seen when you read an ebook and swipe your finger it graphically looks like the page is turning?!? Fuck yeah! So unnecessary and yet cool as shit. This is what Apple brings to the table.

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Re: Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

Post by LoopStationZebra » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:25 am

beats me wrote:
LoopStationZebra wrote:And I don't know if you've really used shill in the correct sense. I mean, I'm not selling Flash or Flash services here, per se. But I do get your point. And it hurts. :cry: :cry: lol
I can only go by my use of the iPhone and while that error icon that comes up on every site where there's flash is kind of annoying, I never really take the iPhone seriously as a tool to surf the net. Also if it is video related I just convinced myself it really isn't all that important to view on such a small screen. Macs aren't exactly known as gaming computers so I don't really play any flash based web games either, nothing for me to miss there. I haven't looked in years.

I'm sure I'll probably have a different perception on an iPad, but as I am an Apple fanboy who didn't over fantasize about what this thing could do pre-announcement I can't really say I'm disappointed. It's pretty much exactly what I expected and anything more that it does or could do would just be a bonus.

If a big part of my creativity or income relied heavily on flash then, yeah, I probably would be disappointed.

But have ya seen when you read an ebook and swipe your finger it graphically looks like the page is turning?!? Fuck yeah! So unnecessary and yet cool as shit. This is what Apple brings to the table.

As I've written in one of the other threads, no Flash support on the iPhone is no big deal. Who the fuck actually spends serious net surfing time on the iPhone? :lol:

But the iPad, I predict, will be different. Flash is all over the net in a very ubiquitous fashion. It's there all over and you don't even know it. But you will when fast interactive sections of your favorite websites are either inaccessible or replaced with an image. I predict that people will be pissed, and that Apple will be forced to adopt the platform. This isn't Flash shilling. It's just a reality. I want to buy the iPad. But no Flash will kinda be like buying a car without windows whilst living in snow country. It will get you to where you want to go, but it's going to be a real bitch along the way. :P
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Re: Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

Post by Angstrom » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:52 am

LoopStationZebra wrote: Flash is all over the net in a very ubiquitous fashion. It's there all over and you don't even know it. But you will when fast interactive sections of your favorite websites are either inaccessible or replaced with an image. I predict that people will be pissed, and that Apple will be forced to adopt the platform. This isn't Flash shilling. It's just a reality. I want to buy the iPad. But no Flash will kinda be like buying a car without windows whilst living in snow country. It will get you to where you want to go, but it's going to be a real bitch along the way. :P
I actually think you have it wrong there, Apple will not be forced to compromise, Web designers will be forced to compromise.

I am a web designer by day, well, when i can be arsed. Back in about 1999 I won a big award for my Flash based websites, for VMG/EMI. In 1996-99 Flash was the only way that you could get "interactivity" happening, along with "interesting design / typography", all very hip in the dot com bubble to have a whooshy menu that looked like a 9 dimensional sausage

But from 2000 onward there was a big drive toward usability and accessibility. Flash was not part of that at all. Clients didn't want it due to the "skip intro" stigma and end users were plainly having trouble using it (plugin fail on corporate machine). So we dropped it like a hot potato. From 2000-2002 prospective clients actively specified their sites with "NO FLASH" (!) For the last 9 years nobody has even asked me for a Flash site.

For a more informative and informed overview than mine, here's John Gruber and Robert Scoble
Used to be you could argue that Flash, whatever its merits, delivered content to the entire audience you cared about. That’s no longer true, and Adobe’s Flash penetration is shrinking with each iPhone OS device Apple sells.

What’s Hulu going to do? Sit there and wait? Whine about the blue boxes? Or do the practical thing and write software that delivers video to iPhone OS? The answer is obvious. Hulu doesn’t care about what’s good for Adobe. They care about what’s good for Hulu. Hulu isn’t a Flash site, it’s a video site. Developers go where the users are.
http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/blue_boxes

Like he said - I'm not in the business of making flash websites, I'm in the business of making websites.
Flash is a PITA,
it's now easier to develop and maintain that same sort of stuff using non-flash methods

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Re: Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

Post by LoopStationZebra » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:23 am

Angstrom wrote: I actually think you have it wrong there, Apple will not be forced to compromise, Web designers will be forced to compromise.

I am a web designer by day, well, when i can be arsed. Back in about 1999 I won a big award for my Flash based websites, for VMG/EMI. In 1996-99 Flash was the only way that you could get "interactivity" happening, along with "interesting design / typography", all very hip in the dot com bubble to have a whooshy menu that looked like a 9 dimensional sausage

But from 2000 onward there was a big drive toward usability and accessibility. Flash was not part of that at all. Clients didn't want it due to the "skip intro" stigma and end users were plainly having trouble using it (plugin fail on corporate machine). So we dropped it like a hot potato. From 2000-2002 prospective clients actively specified their sites with "NO FLASH" (!) For the last 9 years nobody has even asked me for a Flash site.

For a more informative and informed overview than mine, here's John Gruber and Robert Scoble
Used to be you could argue that Flash, whatever its merits, delivered content to the entire audience you cared about. That’s no longer true, and Adobe’s Flash penetration is shrinking with each iPhone OS device Apple sells.

What’s Hulu going to do? Sit there and wait? Whine about the blue boxes? Or do the practical thing and write software that delivers video to iPhone OS? The answer is obvious. Hulu doesn’t care about what’s good for Adobe. They care about what’s good for Hulu. Hulu isn’t a Flash site, it’s a video site. Developers go where the users are.
http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/blue_boxes

Like he said - I'm not in the business of making flash websites, I'm in the business of making websites.

Spoken like a programmer, lol.

Well. We shall have to agree to disagree. Regardless of what your own personal work experience has been - or is now, Flash has never been more popular. In fact, many companies that balked at Flash even 5 years ago for the exact reasons you mentioned have done a complete 180 and embraced the hell out of it. Our own clients have embraced it, as well as the dozen or so major interactive houses that we collaborate with in LA and NYC. It's fucking everywhere. The skip intro thing is a non-starter. There's not a designer I work with that would dream of that crap. They learned hard and they learned fast, actually. It's all about background preloading of content. Don't know what else to say, really. The notion that it's fading is completely wrong. In fact, new signups at forums like actionscript.org and flashkit.com have exploded in the past 3 years. Colleges and universities offering FLash courses/training have had to expand their programs.

*shrug* Programmers and developers have been bitching about Flash since Day 1, and predicting it's demise since Day 2. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

And the Gruber/Scoble stuff is lame. Flash penetration is shrinking with each iPhone sold. lol. Riiiiiight. And Hulu? Of course they aren't married to Flash. But if they do adopt a new platform that will work on the iPad, you can bet that they won't be giving up Flash anytime soon. There will simply be a detect script that runs when you arrive, and loads the proper container.

Based on what I've seen right now, there's no way the iPad is going to force designers to change anything. Time will tell. I think this is one case where Apple has greatly overestimated the cultural impact that the iPad will (won't?) have. If the HP tablet is even remotely as good as the iPad, word will get out quick that it actually does surf the net without blue boxes popping up every 5 seconds. :P
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Re: Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

Post by Angstrom » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:43 am

well, perhaps it's just me.
I've deliberately moved more into doing web apps and corporate intranet/database stuff, so Flash is a real non-starter there.

But I think it's also easy to see that a few big sites are now delivering H.264 alternatives. The BBC delivers it's alternative iPlayer content in that, as does YouTube of course. I doubt they are providing a Flash alternative to please Apple - more likely to keep Adobe from monopolising the streaming medium.

I think we will see Flash decline again as its recent bump was mainly because it was so easy to stream video through it (YouTube factor). The last year has seen the big players moving away from a Flash-only solution there and I can only see that trend increasing in the coming years

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Re: Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

Post by LoopStationZebra » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:58 am

Angstrom wrote:well, perhaps it's just me.
I've deliberately moved more into doing web apps and corporate intranet/database stuff, so Flash is a real non-starter there.

But I think it's also easy to see that a few big sites are now delivering H.264 alternatives. The BBC delivers it's alternative iPlayer content in that, as does YouTube of course. I doubt they are providing a Flash alternative to please Apple - more likely to keep Adobe from monopolising the streaming medium.

I think we will see Flash decline again as its recent bump was mainly because it was so easy to stream video through it (YouTube factor). The last year has seen the big players moving away from a Flash-only solution there and I can only see that trend increasing in the coming years

Well, you could be right and it's certainly logical that another delivery system will arise. And I guess we should be talking about Flash as a plugin/container vs Flash as an interactive development tool. It could very well be that Flash as a development tool continues on, but that it's exported out as something else besides a .swf file. If one is to believe the (often dubious) HTML 5 rumours, much could simply be exported as HTML code - with things like images and vector illustrations just being loaded separately. But all of this gets very tricky, as what HTML 5 will be remains a mystery! :D
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Re: Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

Post by leedsquietman » Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:09 am

I don't know why this article should come as a shock to anyone.

Both Microsoft and Apple are greedy meglamaniac corporations who would sell their own mother down the river for a quick profit.

The view that Apple was the 'people's champion underdog, fighting for good against the evil Microsoft' has long since gone down the toilet, Steve Jobs is all about the money as much as Bill Gates was and Steve Ballmer is. Apple were great at marketing themselves as whiter than white when they have as much poop and shady dealings as anyone.

Both of these corporations care about their bottom line and their shareholder's dividends more than they do about 98% of their 'loyal' userbase. Apple did once upon a time have more of an eye on the creative side, but now it's all about keeping the power they have, crushing pretenders and monopolizing markets exactly like Microsoft were found guilty of. The Ipad is a device which shares a lot of common design and components of the Iphone and Iphone touch, it is breaking no boundaries and is priced higher than more powerful equivalents. There have been plenty of decent mp3 players around which are cheaper and more powerful than the Ipod (definately not Zune), but none of them have the kudos and street cool, so they get passed over. Apple could have someone fart into a can, call it the i-fart, especially if Jobs himself supplied the gas, and sell tons of the stuff which no doubt, college frat boys would bring out at parties and release on windows users - I fart in your general direction, ha, ha. Dude you should have it -it was AWWWEEEEESSUUUUMMMM. WINDOWS SUCKS !

This is why I hope that open source software will eventually come to the DAW world, but I'm kidding myself if I think that's happening anytime soon. So in the meantime, it's a case of being stuck having to use one or other of MS or Apple and as someone who uses both, neither particularly makes me feel warm and fuzzy, they are both systems that could be improved upon. Whatever, I ain't going to off myself over the fact Linux isn't powering my DAW, but it's a pity there isn't a challenger with more muscle and scruples to give it a fair go.
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Re: Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

Post by beats me » Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 am

I could be dead wrong here because I don't know shit about programming, but I do know a lot about voicing opinions on topics I have complete ignorance of. So here we go.

I would think companies and clients don't care about how you get the content delivered the way they want it to appear but just want that little interactive video box thingy that is historically done with flash because it's the easiest to get that result. They may even throw out "I want flash....." so they feel like they are dropping buzzwords on the table but they really have no idea what they are talking about and have just been brainwashed. Luckily us Apple users are above brainwashing and just deal in absolute truths.

I think more and more site owners are going to want their content to appear as planned on iPads and if that doesn't happen they are going to have their cross-hairs on the programmer, especially if their competitor's site works just fine. In the beginning it might even be an auto redirect that goes to an iPad friendly page but sooner or later both site owners and programmers are going to get sick of essentially doing twice the work. A new standard is born.

I'm stupid. This has been proven.

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Re: Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

Post by Machinesworking » Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:52 am

A friend of mine who works for adobe flatly stated that his opinion as to why
the iPhone doesn't support was that it was too slow. He basically told me that adobe had bought
it when he personally thought it had run it's course.

This was before all the articles about the adobe/apple battle etc.
This would also explain why flash is such a pita
on macs in general, if adobe isn't sinking real money into it.... Dunno?

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Re: Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

Post by LoopStationZebra » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:23 pm

The slowness issue on the iPhone was a factor for initial rejection, but only partly. With the 3G, Adobe presented Jobs with an iPhone version of Flash player that, by all accounts, was greatly optimized. He rejected it. The sluggishness is really just a Red Herring to the larger issue of Apple demanding access to the source code. And some other grand scheme of coming out with their own multimedia container.

Again, we'll see how this all shakes out once HP and others release what might be real competition for the iPad. If Microsoft can actually come up with an OS that isn't a complete buggy and bloated piece of shit, things will get interesting. Here's the scenario:

"Hey. The iPad is out. Sweet. Wait. Can't play my Flash games, and my web experience is crippled because of no Flash. Hmm. Well, I'll just buy it and wait 2+ years for HTML 5 to be implemented and the bugs worked out and all browsers supported. Then another 2+ years for game developers and web designers to replace all Flash content. Cool. No problem."

"Ho! What's this?! An HP tablet?! Hmm. Interesting. Ooo, Flash support. Seemless internet. Seemless transition to HTML 5. Multitasking."

:P
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Re: Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

Post by beats me » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:48 pm

Why doesn't Adobe just give Apple whatever it is they are asking for? What do they have to lose by doing so? What do they have to gain by not doing so? Sincerely curious.

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Re: Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

Post by LoopStationZebra » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:57 pm

beats me wrote:Why doesn't Adobe just give Apple whatever it is they are asking for? What do they have to lose by doing so? What do they have to gain by not doing so? Sincerely curious.


Adobe Arrogance. lol. And worry. They know Apple has their eye on a new method to deliver a multimedia experience.

MW is correct. Adobe inherited Flash from Macromedia, and have barely done a thing to optimize the Flash Player code. They've instead adopted a position where they've waited for the CPU power to catch up. This is a shit position, but not unheard of - particularly in the world of 3D modelling programs. The reach has always exceeded the grasp. Until now, really.

I've got no love for Adobe, believe me. My list of gripes is long.

But the lack of Flash support in the iPhone has pissed me off from day one. In fact, Apple's entire policy of basically walking away from Adobe - a partnership which at one time was magic and unstoppable in the graphics world, is SHIT. The graphic design market that Apple once completely dominated has eroded considerably. The number of people I know who have switched to the PC platform in order to properly run the Adobe suite is staggering. *but nothing but a drop in the bucket compared to how many new home consumers they've gotten, of course*
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Re: Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

Post by delicioso » Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:20 pm

Apple’s decision to not support Flash is a tough one – but it’s still the right decision. The decision, like Apple’s early adoption of USB and dumping of disk drives, is a move forward that only Apple is in a position to make. And Apple’s most influential products have been defined by the features they’ve left out as much as the features that they’ve included.

"Lack of Flash in the iPad (and before that, in the iPhone) is a win for accessible, standards-based design."
http://www.zeldman.com/2010/02/01/flash-ipad-standards/

Sketchpad, a painting web app written entirely in HTML5 and Javascript:
http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/02/07/sk ... -relavent/

Flash is not dead yet, but you would be delusional to think that it will take years for HTML5 to have a huge impact on what direction Flash will take. Flash, the development software will probably do alright as long as Adobe keeps up and offers more output options. But Flash as a plugin based web technology is already on its way out and couldn't happen faster.

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Re: Wall Street Journal: The Microsofting of Apple?

Post by LoopStationZebra » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:01 pm

delicioso wrote:Apple’s decision to not support Flash is a tough one – but it’s still the right decision. The decision, like Apple’s early adoption of USB and dumping of disk drives, is a move forward that only Apple is in a position to make. And Apple’s most influential products have been defined by the features they’ve left out as much as the features that they’ve included.

"Lack of Flash in the iPad (and before that, in the iPhone) is a win for accessible, standards-based design."
http://www.zeldman.com/2010/02/01/flash-ipad-standards/

Sketchpad, a painting web app written entirely in HTML5 and Javascript:
http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/02/07/sk ... -relavent/

Flash is not dead yet, but you would be delusional to think that it will take years for HTML5 to have a huge impact on what direction Flash will take. Flash, the development software will probably do alright as long as Adobe keeps up and offers more output options. But Flash as a plugin based web technology is already on its way out and couldn't happen faster.
Good post, but disagree about the time frame. It will take years. Hell, HTML 5 is barely a baby at this point. There's a LOT that is completely unknown about it's capabilities in terms of animation, tweening, etc. And, let's remember, there are significant elements of HTML 5 that have been pioneered/supported/developed by APPLE. lol. :P
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