Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production
djgroovy
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by djgroovy » Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:29 pm

Easy:

1. session view clip automation recording
2. revamped browser, detachable to 2nd monitor
3. good internal modulation without 3rd party usage. I mean apply an lfo or envelope to anything without m4l or midi loopbacks.
4. improvements to racks, things like a custom amount of macro knobs/buttons, and the ability to have multiple zones per chain in the chain selector.
5. surprise us ableton way with something we didn't know we needed (i don't mean instruments).
6. i think i'm forgetting something...

dum
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by dum » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:12 pm

what should be next in the core application (not some M4L workaround).., in addition to prioritising stability:

Proper session view automation recording, even you'll upgrade for that Russ
this would include (optionally) recording parameter automation data from clip envelopes when recording (midi) control data from one track to another.

Bézier curves..drawing automation in live is absolutely cuntish. Actually a complete automation over-haul is required/would be nice. Being able to see multiple envelopes, from single or multiple clips. Also, isn't it that 'zipper' affect in the automation engine which contributes to all those audio discussions ?

'Export as...' older version of Live function. Bouncing any conceptual incompatibilities to audio in the process. This should cover versions as far back as 4.1.4...which is rock solid for playing live with audio clips in session view. This feature, no matter how greatly it would be appreciated by their customers, is very unlikely to be added. see: ultra capitalism.

Improved Freeze function, or a more streamlined 'render in place' type of functionality. By that I mean no more error messages telling me I need to momentarily tweek routings all around my set to allow the freeze. Also being able to render/freeze sends (alone) to new audio channels etc
Also, I don't know about live8, but in live7 it seems you can't change the frozen audio's warp mode from beats mode to re-pitch. That should be tweekable, maybe it is via options.txt but I haven't figured it out yet. Beats mode is categorically useless most of the time for sound design.

sysex support, midi over-haul in general. see: midi timing. if they would at least notify the userbase of the hardware which gives the best results, that would be a start. or partnered up with motu and released an 'official' midi interface for best results. I dunno, whatever works. do it.
Last edited by dum on Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

dum
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by dum » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:14 pm

djgroovy wrote:3. good internal modulation without 3rd party usage. I mean apply an lfo or envelope to anything without m4l or midi loopbacks.
exactly, but it seems to me they're herding users into that M4L pen with that one. see: ultra capitalism.
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

hoffman2k
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by hoffman2k » Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:13 pm

b0unce wrote:
djgroovy wrote:3. good internal modulation without 3rd party usage. I mean apply an lfo or envelope to anything without m4l or midi loopbacks.
exactly, but it seems to me they're herding users into that M4L pen with that one. see: ultra capitalism.
But you can't even do it with M4L yet. You can modulate any top level parameter, but you can't access anything inside racks.
So while you noodle on your wonderful ultra capitalism angle, us guys in the M4L pen will just wait for it to be actually technically possible and working before we bring out the fake outrage.

dum
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by dum » Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:28 pm

Allow me to repeat myself, as you seem to have trouble understanding the meaning of what I said.

"it seems to me they're herding users into that M4L pen with that one."

Within that statement there is no way I infer that the functionality is already available with M4L.
I meant precisely what I wrote.
In otherwords, for the hard of understanding, it seems they are aiming towards that goal.

Don't agree with me ? Good for you, state as much. But you only seem to be taking issue with the fact you think I'm inferring it's possible now. Nitpicking in otherwords.


It's the same doubters deniers & apologists all the time, and time as usual will vindicate my 'unpopular' observations.
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

LLR
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by LLR » Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:31 pm

I would like to echo the need for a more powerful Sample editor. I get frustrated copying clips into the Arrangement view just to cut and splice and mute then freeze it to a new track.

Also, a more powerful Freeze/Flatten feature would be greatly appreciated. I want to be able to freeze multiple channels down to a single submix without having to go through the whole export process. I would like to leave the original channels in the song along with the submix, but the original channels would be disabled and shouldn't effect CPU usage at all. This way I can record more complicated tracks with effects with the submix, but I have the original components of the submix just in case I have to go back in time.

UKRuss
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by UKRuss » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:11 pm

dum wrote:what should be next in the core application (not some M4L workaround).., in addition to prioritising stability:

Proper session view automation recording, even you'll upgrade for that Russ
this would include (optionally) recording parameter automation data from clip envelopes when recording (midi) control data from one track to another.

Bézier curves..drawing automation in live is absolutely cuntish. Actually a complete automation over-haul is required/would be nice. Being able to see multiple envelopes, from single or multiple clips. Also, isn't it that 'zipper' affect in the automation engine which contributes to all those audio discussions ?

'Export as...' older version of Live function. Bouncing any conceptual incompatibilities to audio in the process. This should cover versions as far back as 4.1.4...which is rock solid for playing live with audio clips in session view. This feature, no matter how greatly it would be appreciated by their customers, is very unlikely to be added. see: ultra capitalism.

Improved Freeze function, or a more streamlined 'render in place' type of functionality. By that I mean no more error messages telling me I need to momentarily tweek routings all around my set to allow the freeze. Also being able to render/freeze sends (alone) to new audio channels etc
Also, I don't know about live8, but in live7 it seems you can't change the frozen audio's warp mode from beats mode to re-pitch. That should be tweekable, maybe it is via options.txt but I haven't figured it out yet. Beats mode is categorically useless most of the time for sound design.

sysex support, midi over-haul in general. see: midi timing. if they would at least notify the userbase of the hardware which gives the best results, that would be a start. or partnered up with motu and released an 'official' midi interface for best results. I dunno, whatever works. do it.
8O

...I have to say: Yes, I probably would upgrade for all/some/or one of any of the above.

I still say live 8 does what I need to now, but perhaps I have become to comfortable with my workrounds...

Session automation and bezier curves would be top of my list of reasons to upgrade.

djgroovy
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by djgroovy » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:26 pm

Automation curves, right, that's one i was forgetting.

hoffman2k
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by hoffman2k » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:46 pm

dum wrote:Allow me to repeat myself, as you seem to have trouble understanding the meaning of what I said.

"it seems to me they're herding users into that M4L pen with that one."

Within that statement there is no way I infer that the functionality is already available with M4L.
I meant precisely what I wrote.
In otherwords, for the hard of understanding, it seems they are aiming towards that goal.

Don't agree with me ? Good for you, state as much. But you only seem to be taking issue with the fact you think I'm inferring it's possible now. Nitpicking in otherwords.


It's the same doubters deniers & apologists all the time, and time as usual will vindicate my 'unpopular' observations.
And as usual the actual point just flies by and vanishes in a puff of more fake outrage.

You try to make the point that they "seem" to enforce you to buy M4L to get functionality like this.
The fact the feature in question isn't possible isn't nitpicking, its pretty much the whole point.
If it isn't possible in M4L, it isn't possible within Live. And it works the other way around. Because we can now modulate parameters with Max For Live, we could have a native LFO Device. But as long as racks can't be accessed, both the M4L and native versions are half-assed.

Until ends like this are tied up, we probably wont see a free runtime or a native solution. Both outcomes are dependent on how much core access in Live for all sorts of controls is implemented. And with a runtime, where is the difference between native and 3rd party?

So if that was too hard to understand:

You: Ableton is greedy.
Me: Ableton is slow. Always predictably slow. And they gave us the option to be a few steps ahead of them along with full customization abilities. Albeit with the same limitations they have.

And nice touch with the vindication bit. Especially on me. What is there to deny? Most of my posts are actual bug reports. While lots people now are all having loads of trouble on various of systems with Live 8, Live 8 is actually running pretty decent over here. Do I doubt there is a problem? Nope.. Take a look back in the bug forums for reports from Poster and I of our "cursed" dual G5's. Issues almost nobody ran into but us. Do I miss those days? Nope.. Hell no.. But it did happen.

So its apologetic to not have too many issues. To not have been bittered over whatever did it for you and to have most of our wishes granted with M4L. Fair enough. I'm looking forward to your new angle when the M4L runtime hits the streets. I may have to eat hat if it never comes. But it beats hearing you spout the same crap over dozens of different names for years on end.

dum
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by dum » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:56 pm

So ya, as I was saying
djgroovy wrote:3. good internal modulation without 3rd party usage. I mean apply an lfo or envelope to anything without m4l or midi loopbacks.
it seems to me that they're aiming for a M4L solution to that age old request.
See: how they've been doing business for years (there will be M4L upgrades which will also necessitate upgrading Live itself).
and also see: how they've been marketing M4L.
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

Pasha
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by Pasha » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:20 pm

UKRuss wrote:I have to say I think I truly am at the end of my update path with Live. Live 8 delivers everything I need.

I can't think of anything I'm missing. This will be it for me. I have very few stability problems and crashes are so infrequent I can ignore them, I'm happy and will stay as I am.

8.09, APC40.

Done.
Russ, it's so nice not feeling alone. :D
8.0.8, Launchpad done.

- Cheers
- Pasha
Apple iMac 2013 / Macbook Late 2012
Live 10 Suite,Zebra ,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
______________________________________
Music : http://alonetone.com/pasha

Hidden Driveways
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by Hidden Driveways » Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:18 pm

Video clips in Session View

Session/Arrange dual monitor support

Jitter For Live ( :?: or can you already do that :?: )

Multiple Clip Views

Scrub while previewing clips in browser

Video effects! ::ducks to avoid pies being thrown::

ethios4
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by ethios4 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:16 pm

Lots of useful ideas here. Another one: a quick and easy way to 'smooth' clip envelope automation. I often use the pencil tool to draw in gating type effects in a clip, and I always have to go in by hand and adjust those straight up-and-down lines to angled lines to get rid of clicking sounds. There should be a right-click option to smooth automation.

Jarvisimon
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by Jarvisimon » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:50 pm

hoffman2k wrote:So while you noodle on your wonderful ultra capitalism angle, us guys in the M4L pen will just wait for it to be actually technically possible and working before we bring out the fake outrage.
Capitalism aside, Live should have more integrated modulation options that are as good as anything that may, in the future, be possible with Max4Live. I would love to use live signals (voice/instrument/recording/midi signal/anything) to modulate paramaters in Live.

However, the thread is about Live and where it could go next,

It is my belief that, like it or not, all music applications will eventually end up being quite similar to each other. There isn't one feature to be found in one DAW that doesn't soon crop up in another. Sonar have just implemented their own version of clip view for jamming clips and it's pretty damned close to how Ableton have set it out, You just can't get away from this and neither should you try.

I was a loudly dissenting voice around the release time of Live 8 in regards to its stability, infact, I still haven't upgraded, though am very upbeat that Ableton are addressing stability with all their available energy. However, since its release, I have kept an eye on support issues and whilst a lot of the bugs reported were definitely Ableton based, a large amount appear to be down to plug-ins and MIDI related issues.

So next, I would like to share my thoughts on Propellerheads Reason/Record combination.

As we all know, this particular DAW has no 3rd party plug in support, or MIDI out for that matter, making it one of the most stable musical platforms on the market. Infact, it may be THE most stable DAW around.

However, because of their lack of plug in support, you only get the tools that their team of coders include. With plug ins, you have a million different teams of developers, all around the world writing application that you can use, however, this is at the expense of STABILITY.

I have a feeling that the Props will release a developers kit (think Reaktor) for Reason, so that third party developers can build instruments/Effects/Samplers etc to be used inside their much more stable product. If this happens, Reason/Record could be the most reliable tool of choice for the masses.

So perhaps, this is the way forward for Ableton too, a self-contained DAW (stability/efficiency/inter-instrument modulation) with instrument building capabilities to rival anything its opponents can code.

I'm sure Max is great but not everyone wants to buy several products, especially if one self-contained product is more stable.

Rave
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by Rave » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:25 pm

Dual monitor support. Eucon support. Session automation.

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