Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production
JuanSOLO
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by JuanSOLO » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:39 pm

I agree with most everything above, but just to re-iterate a few, and add a few,

1. Preset function for all instruments and effects with selecting knobs and triggering buttons, with the ability to recall with program changes. It can be done in M4L but it seems to be it needs to be a standard feature for ALL FX, Instruments, Racks etc. Something that was similar to using Snaps in Reaktor plugs and recalling them via Program Change.

2. LFO Modulated Macros. Another thing that M4L can do that seems to be an oversight by Ableton to be standard.

3. Maybe something like an expanded Rack, with the ability to add desired amount of Macro Knobs, comes with presetting as in 1, and LFO's as in 2.

4. Ability to set your own default on Midi Envelope automation, or a way to select more than one at a time and change them. For example, if you are bouncing stuff from drum rack to a send with a reverb, and you have 120 cubes filled in drumRack, you have to crank up the send out of the drum rack, then turn down the Envelopes from 127 to zero for 120 cubes, THEN you can add the reverb send to the desired cubes as you build beats or whatever. But it seems Live is not currently saving this information. So making a template MisiClip with envelope automation cannot be saved in the browser and recalled in another set. Also this is super time consuming to do, especially with more than one send from DrumRack. So if you use a different DrumRack or start a new one from scratch you have to go through the whole process again.

5. More access from M4L. For example, need access to racks and instruments buried inside racks and instruments, as opposed to just the outer 8 Macros. Need access to every single paramerter in DrumRack, Operator, etc. Currently you cannot access user oscillator setting in Operator or a number of other things using M4L. HOWEVER making somekind of all access preset as I stated in 1, would make it possible to use one instance of opearator that could store and recall tons of sounds. This SHOULD be a staple feature for all Ableton devices!

6. Dual Monitor activity.

7. Record env automation in session view.

8. Midi mappable browsing functionality.

9. Zoom devices.

10. Better reverb!

11. A device like the Finger and BeatLookUp combined.

12. Kick ass granular synth

13. Pitch Tracking guitar plug that outputs midi

14. APC40 editor

15. Env Automation bez curves

I could sit here and think of more, I could open up live and in 5 minutes think of 100more.

BUT ABSOLUTELY the most necessary one would be that Live is stable again.

JuanSOLO
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by JuanSOLO » Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:48 pm

Jarvisimon wrote:
...So perhaps, this is the way forward for Ableton too, a self-contained DAW (stability/efficiency/inter-instrument modulation) with instrument building capabilities to rival anything its opponents can code.

I'm sure Max is great but not everyone wants to buy several products, especially if one self-contained product is more stable.

I like that idea, if it would make Ableton very stable, but still give you any option to say model 3rd party plugins from other Apps. However Ableton would really have to get with it on some stuff they seem way off the mark on, like reverb.

ACTUALLY this would seem to be even better if it was a purchase option. Like you could buy Live into, Live All (use outside apps), or Live Native (completely isolated).

Pasha
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by Pasha » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:12 am

Jarvisimon wrote: However, because of their lack of plug in support, you only get the tools that their team of coders include. With plug ins, you have a million different teams of developers, all around the world writing application that you can use, however, this is at the expense of STABILITY.

....

So perhaps, this is the way forward for Ableton too, a self-contained DAW (stability/efficiency/inter-instrument modulation) with instrument building capabilities to rival anything its opponents can code.

I'm sure Max is great but not everyone wants to buy several products, especially if one self-contained product is more stable.
At the moment Live is a self-contained DAW. If you do not use any form of Plug-in you already achieve stability. I do not use any plugin beside Zebra and I have no problems.
Max is the Live Developer Kit in disguise. I do agree with you that stability comes at a price. Switching off Plugin Support for the Abes it's a trivial work but why? I think a better way is to certify a set of plugins and work only with those who are, forget all the others. Selecting the major five brands and work with them would be a better option.
Once fixed the current release will give you everything.
However I'm still short of ideas about what could be the next big thing for me. The Abes fulfilled all my needs with Live 8, following an almost 100% with Live 7.
However I'm getting more ideas in this thread and I'm asking myself what I need more than what I got to make music? Soon an answer will come. :roll:
Last edited by Pasha on Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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anybody human
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by anybody human » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:17 am

In no particular order: Track comping, automation curves, sends from drum rack (not the internal ones), sample/audio editor, piano roll editor, session view automation, and a bunch of other things which have probably already been mentioned. Just 1 and I'll upgrade.

No more presets or instruments for awhile. Live is very good in that respect already. Even effects wise, it's tough to get better w/o being a VST mnfr. (although Logic & it sounds like Cubase do pretty well w/ effects). Live should be about the program fascilitating creativity, not presets and loop packs.

Convolution/IR reverb can take a TON of CPU btw. I'd settle for just a better reverb, always kick myself for not joining the Aether group buy. Tisk, the GUI was downright offensive at the time. I was all into convolution and didn't realize how valuable a good digital reverb can be.

For the sake of humanity, no amp sim.

anybody human
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by anybody human » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:34 am

@Pasha/Jarvismon: No VST's? 8O 5 major plugin brands? 8O C'mon now. Really? That came oughta nowhere. That would mean getting rid of Uh-He, Fabfilter & Soundtoys cos they're not Waves or NI? :cry:
How about the 3rd parties & Live just try to fix bugs as best they can and everybody just use what works for them. 8)
I know what you mean though, it's already a self contained DAW etc. yawn it's late goodnight y'all.

Poster
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by Poster » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:35 am

JuanSOLO wrote:2. LFO Modulated Macros. Another thing that M4L can do that seems to be an oversight by Ableton to be standard.
hear hear.. http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php? ... &hilit=lfo
JuanSOLO wrote:11. A device like the Finger and BeatLookUp combined.
you mean native or MFL?
I was very surprised not seeing such obvious devices to come standard with MFL..



the only thing I would really like to see is improvements on the Session/Arrange relation..
this will include;
- meta clips.. ((Session) clips that can hold multiple clips or chunks of clips.. sort of miniature arrangements)..
- Session automation..
- non-linear options in Arrange..
- focus on Session as a sampler, with typical sampler like functions, so not a mere clip launcher..

Angstrom
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by Angstrom » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:19 am

I would like the arrangement side to go non-linear.
This means kill off the 1 dimensional tape metaphor and allow multiple mixes to coexist in parallel chunks. The benefits would be: for trying out mix sections and arrangement sections, for trying out/ creating alternate mixes and versions, such as a mono mix, a club mix, a soundtrack mix.

All of these variants obviously use the same source material / clips, and so it would make sense to allow alternate arrangements and mixes to coexist in the same file, rather than requiring us to fork off a version (as we must now). It's currently impossible to recombine two arrangements once they are forked, so any parallel experiments with automation, mixing or arranging can never be reconciled.

dum
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by dum » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:04 pm

anybody human wrote:Convolution/IR reverb can take a TON of CPU btw. I'd settle for just a better reverb, always kick myself for not joining the Aether group buy. Tisk, the GUI was downright offensive at the time.

Just curious what convolution reverbs you've been using to come to this conclusion ?
I've been using altiverb for a few years now and it's super lean. Ridiculous how lean it is. been using other convo-reverbs like reverberate on my netbook - super lean. Only convolution reverbs I've used that disproportionately drained my cpu were freebies I discovered on KVR, coded by 'amateurs' and c++ enthusiasts.

As for Aether, I use that regularly too and it's a cpu PIG. biggest cpu pig reverb I've ever tried. And the gui hasn't changed since the group buy. You could make the gui 50% smaller at the time, and you still can. I like the (smaller) GUI - it's useful for spotting problematic frequencies quickly. I suppose it's possible the gui changed in the 1.0.1 bugfix, but I wouldn't know since 2caudio stopped supporting aether on 10.4 right after version 1.0.0 (smooth move! I was impressed with the cojones needed to be so shrift)


anyway, from my experience, the whole convolution reverb = cpu pig thing is a complete myth perpetuated by those with little or no experience with modern convolution reverbs from the last few years.
At any rate, if there is actually a commercially available convolution reverb that uses a comparative TONNE of CPU out there I'd like to check it out.

When convolution reverb was brand new, it was indeed a hog. but that was years ago. Good algos are much more taxing.
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

JuanSOLO
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by JuanSOLO » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:35 pm

Poster wrote: you mean native or MFL?
I was very surprised not seeing such obvious devices to come standard with MFL..
..

YES NATIVE

Mudo
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by Mudo » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:38 pm

...

My hopes:
Live focused in live.
Modularity.
Best prices.
Full support documentation avariable.


Jitter for live is possible if you have maxmsp 5 too.


In the other hand maybe it is time to look in other direction for some "setups"...


...

Poster
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by Poster » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:38 pm

JuanSOLO wrote:
Poster wrote: you mean native or MFL?
I was very surprised not seeing such obvious devices to come standard with MFL..
..

YES NATIVE
although I'm all for exotic native devices, for me personally Reaktor fills those gaps..
I rather see improvements to Live's core; Session<>Arrange/non-linearity..

on the other hand I really hope that MFL isn't the answer to all exotic feature requests..
Last edited by Poster on Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JuanSOLO
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by JuanSOLO » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:49 pm

Other than Auto Filter, and Operator, Reaktor pretty much has the FX and gadgets on LockDown, Undefeated in my book. However I would like to see these things seamlessly integrate, or native to Ableton. Reaktor plugs can be fickle, and Hog cpu at times. Just having BeatLookUp or the Finger plugged in Ableton, with no audio going to them hits the CPU meter. Thats why I would like to see something Ableton, besides M4L.

I would like to see Ableton use M4L as an idea platform, taking some of the better device ideas created by users and making them rock solid Ableton devices.

Pasha
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by Pasha » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:56 pm

anybody human wrote:@Pasha/Jarvismon: No VST's? 8O 5 major plugin brands? 8O C'mon now. Really? That came oughta nowhere. That would mean getting rid of Uh-He, Fabfilter & Soundtoys cos they're not Waves or NI? :cry:
How about the 3rd parties & Live just try to fix bugs as best they can and everybody just use what works for them. 8)
I know what you mean though, it's already a self contained DAW etc. yawn it's late goodnight y'all.
Just trying to be provocative. Do not get my 5 strictly, just to mean that you cannot be compatible with everything around.
Simply not possible. So reduce your scope and certify. Working in a software company that's what we do to avoid problems.

- Best
- Pasha
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Live 10 Suite,Zebra ,Guitar, Bass, VG99, JV1010 and some controllers
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Jarvisimon
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by Jarvisimon » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:25 pm

anybody human wrote:How about the 3rd parties & Live just try to fix bugs as best they can
That's basically what's happening, however, it seems that VST/AU etc plug in support is at the heart of much of Live's present instability.

An Ableton plug in building kit would allow designers to build instruments that were just for use in Live and make the product far more reliable on each update.

Which would you rather have? A platform that didn't crash, or your favourite synths that did crash?

silveriofunk
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Re: Beyond Live 8 what's next really?

Post by silveriofunk » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:51 pm

Sage wrote:Being able to consolidate audio without having to stop everything.
+1

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