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 Post subject: LOVING the locked threads…
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:07 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm
Posts: 5752
It's turning to total chaos, which I really appreciate.

The drama is high. You never know when your next post will be met with that stony message informing you the topic has been locked.

Thread oblivion creeps around every corner.

One day perhaps the Great Banning will occur and when you navigate to the forum one morning you will see that the forum no longer exists.

A man can dream.

Oh, and *ahem*, modulating to E major from the key of Ab major is an enharmonic trick that lets you go to the relative major of the parallel minor and still have a key signature that works.

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 Post subject: Re: LOVING the locked threads…
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:22 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 8655
On your main note: I know, right? Isn't it exciting? The thought that it's bad is just a knee-jerk reaction. One must break free from the shackles of conditioning to realize that this is way better.

On your last note: Why over-complicate something simple? You're better than that. How about going into what types of keys + modes can mix together like C Ionian & F Lydian?

Maybe those ankle biters who think they're geniuses because they use a camelot wheel will learn something

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 Post subject: Re: LOVING the locked threads…
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:44 pm 

Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:39 pm
Posts: 21776
It usually culminates in TomV trying to armchair out-mod the mods.

I don’t know if you guys were around a few weekends ago, but I think there was a mod in training because a bunch of random threads in The Lounge were either locked or made into a sticky. Even one of starving students 8 dozen cryptic “white cop vs. black guy” threads was turned into a sticky. It was hilarious but then all back to normal by Monday.

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 Post subject: Re: LOVING the locked threads…
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:58 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm
Posts: 5752
shadx312 wrote:
On your last note: Why over-complicate something simple? You're better than that. How about going into what types of keys + modes can mix together like C Ionian & F Lydian?


Overcomplicate? :lol:

Of course (and not to be rude) I'm guessing you said the "overcomplicate" bit because you don't actually know what I'm talking about…?

The point was that using an enharmonic key does simplify things. The most well-known example is Schubert's Moments musiceaux number 6 (D. 780, Op. 94). It's in Ab major but at a certain point he wants to modulate to the relative major (Fb major) of the parallel minor (Ab minor). But Fb major isn't a key (you would have a Bbb in the key signature, which doesn't happen). So to get around that he wrote it in E major. So it looks funny to go from four flats (Ab major) to four sharps (E major), but it's completely logical if you understand the connections between the keys and how the enharmonic spellings are related.

As for mixing modes, mixing C Ionian and F Lydian is sort of meaningless. They both contain all of the same pitch classes. To "mix" them would be to somehow have both C and F sounding like tonal centers while still only using the pitch collection of C Ionian or C major.

True modal music will have one of those acting as a tonal center. The different intervals within the mode in relation to the tonal center or 1st scale degree of the mode are what gives it a "modal" characteristic in contrast to a pure major or minor tonal sound.

On the other hand, if you're talking about using modes in terms of chord/scale theory as is used in jazz a lot, then modes can be mixed in lots of different ways.

For instance a lot of players will use the Dorian mode over every minor seventh chord in a song, Lydian over every major seventh chord, and Lydian b7 (4th Mode Melodic Minor) over every dominant seventh chord.

This infuses some variety into the note choices as otherwise one might just be playing within a key, and thinking in modes isn't really all that helpful in that context. So if you had a ii-V-I in C major you could think of it as playing D Dorian, G Mixolydian, and C Ionian over the respective chords, but in the end you're still only playing notes from the key of C major (which goes back to your question about modes).

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 Post subject: Re: LOVING the locked threads…
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:09 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 8655
Well, I meant make it sound more complicated than it is. I guess I was assuming that it might be over most readers heads, semantically.

Quote:
The point was that using an enharmonic key does simplify things. The most well-known example is Schubert's Moments musiceaux number 6 (D. 780, Op. 94). It's in Ab major but at a certain point he wants to modulate to the relative major (Fb major) of the parallel minor (Ab minor). But Fb major isn't a key (you would have a Bbb in the key signature, which doesn't happen). So to get around that he wrote it in E major. So it looks funny to go from four flats (Ab major) to four sharps (E major), but it's completely logical if you understand the connections between the keys and how the enharmonic spellings are related.

That's hot.

Quote:
As for mixing modes, mixing C Ionian and F Lydian is sort of meaningless. They both contain all of the same pitch classes. To "mix" them would be to somehow have both C and F sounding like tonal centers while still only using the pitch collection of C Ionian or C major.

Yes and I'm glad you explained why because I asked after reading this at the bottom (Pitch Axis): http://www.mixshare.com/wiki/doku.php?i ... ced_theory

And the rest of what you said is what I want learn more of...
Well, I get it conceptually, but I want to shift that from cognitive understanding to memorized conditioning :P

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Last edited by shadx312 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: LOVING the locked threads…
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:19 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm
Posts: 5752
shadx312 wrote:
I guess I was assuming that it might be over most readers heads, semantically.


I'd say semantically and musically.

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 Post subject: Re: LOVING the locked threads…
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:23 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 8655
Have you checked out Fabrizio Poce's J74 Progressive just out of curiosity? http://fabriziopoce.com/progressive.html

I don't really think of it as a cheat tool but just a tool but I suppose after a point of theory expertise it's no quicker than playing or drawing in the notes, but it's helped.

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 Post subject: Re: LOVING the locked threads…
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:24 pm 

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:30 pm
Posts: 193
Im actually quite "ahem" impressed...


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 Post subject: Re: LOVING the locked threads…
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 7:49 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 8655
I JUST got an email for the Progressive 3.0 update :lol:
Woohoo!

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 Post subject: Re: LOVING the locked threads…
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:03 pm 

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:21 pm
Posts: 5752
shadx312 wrote:
Yes and I'm glad you explained why because I asked after reading this at the bottom (Pitch Axis): http://www.mixshare.com/wiki/doku.php?i ... ced_theory

And the rest of what you said is what I want learn more of...
Well, I get it conceptually, but I want to shift that from cognitive understanding to memorized conditioning :P


That stuff you read is "the rest of what I said."

This "Pitch Axis" theory and chord/scale theory are the same. It's all about moving through chords and choosing which modes to play over them.

It's a pretty good system that has been taught a lot in modern jazz education, but it's not without its problems.

The main issue with it is just what I said earlier. If you're playing a progression which is essentially staying in one key, then all you're really doing by playing the modes of the major scale is playing the same scale starting on a different note every chord. Consequently some people say you should just be thinking within a single key and let the melody of the piece guide your improvisation (I'm talking about this in the context of jazz improv, but it can apply to writing melodies over chord progressions too).

But chord/scale theory is really just meant to be a starting point and, after all, a lot of jazz doesn't just stay in one key. Even one of the most classic examples, Autumn Leaves, which is mostly in one key (G minor) also has one chromatic chord (in its original vanilla version).

So for Autumn Leaves in G minor the modes you could us over each chord would be:

| Cm7–Dorian | F7–Mixolydian | Bbmaj7–Ionian | Ebmaj7–Lydian | Am7b5–Locrian | D7–Superlocrian | Gm7–Aeolian |

The D7 chord is the only odd man out. That's because it is being drawn from the G harmonic minor scale instead of the G Aeolian scale, which gives you the F# that acts as the D7's major 3rd and allows it to function as a dominant to the Gm7 that follows it.

There are several different modes you could play over the D7 (as there are for all the chords) but I chose the seventh mode of Eb melodic minor, also known as Superlocrian or the Diminished Whole-Tone scale, because it's a great scale to capture that altered sound of the "foreign" D7 chord.

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 Post subject: Re: LOVING the locked threads…
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 6:09 am 

Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:17 am
Posts: 348
Location: Edmonton Alberta
Best Thread ever.

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 Post subject: Re: LOVING the locked threads…
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:19 am 

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:49 pm
Posts: 1163
Location: Burbank
Meh - anyone who gets their rhubarb rubbed the wrong way over internet forum drama and crap is probably destined for an early dirt nap due to stroke or something. There is reason for bliss and celebration, and that would be the launching of my new band "Sniff and the Farts"! :|

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 Post subject: Re: LOVING the locked threads…
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:36 am 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 8655
It's as good a reason as any, unless you're ungrateful that you even have a sense of smell...

You know Styles you should really get in the methane power game, you could make some pioneering advances!

Market your band as 'green' and power your own equipment for example...

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 Post subject: Re: LOVING the locked threads…
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:11 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:49 pm
Posts: 1163
Location: Burbank
shadx312 wrote:
It's as good a reason as any, unless you're ungrateful that you even have a sense of smell...

You know Styles you should really get in the methane power game, you could make some pioneering advances!

Market your band as 'green' and power your own equipment for example...


It's ironic that you mention this because I've been working with a group of engineers for the past several years and investing gobs of dosh profusely towards the development of a strap-on "Fart Harvester". It's a barely noticeable inflatable bag with a Velcro fastener - you slip it on inside your undies first thing in the 'morn, and it passively collects those little toots, queefies and African barking spiders throughout the day - no more embarrassing odors or "elevator situations". At the end of the day, you simply plug it into the collector tank which empties the content. After a week or so - Eureka - enough aromatic hydrocarbons to power a table saw, guitar amp, whatever. I call that some serious carbon footprint removal and being "True Green". :|

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 Post subject: Re: LOVING the locked threads…
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:17 pm 

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:50 pm
Posts: 8655
Aw man you had me until the African spiders; even if you could afford them there's no way you could secure all the permits let alone the reason why which would've brought the attention to other organizations interested in your technology and copyright/patent concerns :?

I would expect that slap chop guy to infomercial your new product before you could secure your next gig at the Apollo...

Er wait isn't your drummer with the EPA? If so I could give you the benefit of the doubt.

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