Faith VS Atheism

[nuperspective]

there's no 'not really' about it. Atheists deny the existence of god. PERIOD. the 'whys' are of little to no relevance to the meaning of the word. If you claim to be atheist, you claim to deny the existence of god. I suggest you get in touch with Oxford if you have an issue with how they're defining it.

well then you didnt read my earlier post.....

i dont see myself as an atheist. i consider myself a rationalist.

richard dawkins has the following scale:

1: Strong theist. 100% certainty and belief in God. "I do not believe, I know."
2: De-facto theist. I cannot be certain of God's existence, but I strongly believe and live my life on the assumption that it is there.
3: Agnostic theist. I am uncertain, but inclined to believe in God.
4: Agnostic. God's existence and non-existence are equally probably and improbable.
5: Agnostic atheist. I am uncertain, but inclined to not believe in God.
6: De-facto atheist. I cannot know for certain, but I think God is very improbable and I live my life on the assumption that there is no God.
7: Strong atheist. I know there is no God.

he considers himself a 6.9 [as do i]. show me the proof as an rational person i will change my mind.

here lies a problem. most people are rational and dont believe in god because of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. therefore view themselves [incorrectly] as atheists. due to the fact that most people only view the world as full of believers or non-believers. if given the chance im sure most "atheists" would review the rating system above and classify in the 6 range.

therefore lets see anyone reading this rate yourself on dawkins scale...

[leedsquietman]

Some of you should really attend a mainstream church these days and listen to what is being said, instead of googling what Greek philosophers thought about it 4000 years ago and second guessing.

If only to give your atheism a modern and pertinent reference point, instead of the many not even half baked personal opinions you get from watching a couple of documentaries and copying and pasting a few quotes from the first couple of websites you hit up from a google search.

I have no problems with atheists, but if the rhetoric from believers is poor, I've read nothing new or heard any original or intelligent thought provoking ideas from the atheist opinion on this subject either.

Frankly, it's become a big snoozefest, so feel free to slate organized religion as is fashionable, or slate me if it makes you feel better, I don't need validation from anyone on this thread to feel good about myself and my core value system.

Peace

[nuperspective]

..... so i take it you're a 4 then [agnostic]

[H20nly]

Every religion out there says a divine creator is all powerful. A creator that cannot know that his communications will be misinterpreted, is not all powerful.

Buddhism doesn't deal with this creator mentality. So in the spirit of fairness/accuracy your statement falls short.

Atheists believe the universe just is, no singular consciousness. It's a much more humble approach IMO.

Atheists deny the existence of god. I'm not sure that's any more humble than believing in god.

I'm gonna have to agree with dum here. If it walks and quacks like a duck... There is no room for interpretation. "Humble" implies that Atheists don't pound their chests saying "me right, you stupid" you need only read this thread to find that is far from the case.


As far as a collective consciousness is concerned... there is consciousness right? There is a collection of beings that have this attribute right? So like it or not, embrace it or hate it, there is a collective consciousness. Proving the existence of God may be quite difficult, however the existence of consciousness seems to be something that has long since been agreed upon.


In regards to evil coming from God... and why did God make ___________ ?(<--insert calamity to taste) There is no light without darkness. How can one measure when there is no form of measurement or nothing to compare with? If two clams were talking how would one convince the other that there is this thing called dry?

In regards to the horrible things that happen to people... I tend to agree with leedsquietman. Most of those things are by our own hands. Wars... this should be obvious. Take something like a car crash though: Why did he/she have to die? Dunno, but we were born with feet. Rolling down the highway at 60 miles an hour in a conglomerate of steel and plastic is a gamble that we take. Just because the odds have proven to be in our favor doesn't mean that it is any less of situation created by hands of man, many men, over the course of 100 years. If two cheetah collide at full speed head on, I'd wager that they can shake it off.

Not understanding the intricacies of physics or geometry does not make them any less real. Ignorance of truth or facts on either side of this conversation proves or disproves absolutely nothing.

"Let your conscience be you guide"

[plantaginate]

dont believe in god because of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

what evidence is this?


also seems interesting peoples idea of "religion" begins and ends with christianity.

[Pitch Black]

Couple of years ago I did some sessions for a Christian Electronica band (yes they exist!) I jumped at the chance, just as I would have had it been an Islamic Electronica band or whatever... a chance to have a few juicy discussions about Big Questions etc. At our first pre-meeting over coffee to discuss the project, they asked me "does it matter that we're a bunch of Christians?" I replied "not at all, so long as it doesn't matter that I'm not."

Praise anyone or anything... as long as you live by the Golden Rule you're O.K. in my book.

[H20nly]

Praise anyone or anything... as long as you live by the Golden Rule you're O.K. in my book.

this.


believing or not believing will not change what is. what ever... is.

[plantaginate]

Every religion out there says a divine creator is all powerful. A creator that cannot know that his communications will be misinterpreted, is not all powerful.

Buddhism doesn't deal with this creator mentality. So in the spirit of fairness/accuracy your statement falls short.

which isn't necessarily to say that it doesn't deal with a universal mind of sorts. from all the texts i've read the universe and all the buddhas have simply existed, outside of time. which also isn't to say certain schools don't venerate buddhas. pure land, for example, "worship" Amitabha Buddha. reminds me a little of the christian view of "worship jesus, be granted access to heaven".

[@ndy]

Atheist all the way!

[Machinesworking]

@ H20, you're arguing for a limited god then, one that has no control over evil. This is not the nature of most religions.
Most religions say god is all powerful, period. Again, if god is all powerful, then he could do something about starving children, but he doesn't, therefore he is either not all powerful, or he is not all good.

Atheists I've met for the most part could give a shit whether their beliefs are going to be thought of as humble or not. (to be an atheist you get a lot of flack from both traditional and hippy/eastern religious devotees, it's not something you can bring up without people wanting to argue with you, and believe me I do not argue with people because they state their religious beliefs, but the same is not true when I state my lack) That was never my argument.

My point was that the religious tend to think they have a key to the answer to life's mysteries, without any need for proof, it's called faith for a reason, and I do not see any humility in thinking that you can wish or prove gods existence by the act of sheer numbers or any other random non scientific faith based "truth". To me, arguing against evolution, the earth revolving around the sun, other religions, science in general, is the absolute definition of ego tripping. Seriously, priests still can't marry, preachers still call homosexuality a sin, and religion is still used to divide people all the time, yet atheists are told they are not humble because they don't attend the same church as you? It would be funny if it wasn't so annoying.

[H20nly]

Every religion out there says a divine creator is all powerful. A creator that cannot know that his communications will be misinterpreted, is not all powerful.

Buddhism doesn't deal with this creator mentality. So in the spirit of fairness/accuracy your statement falls short.

which isn't necessarily to say that it doesn't deal with a universal mind of sorts. from all the texts i've read the universe and all the buddhas have simply existed, outside of time. which also isn't to say certain schools don't venerate buddhas. pure land, for example, "worship" Amitabha Buddha. reminds me a little of the christian view of "worship jesus, be granted access to heaven".

Worshiping the Prophet seems to be a common thread/fallacy among organized religion. I find this to be the biggest problem. In an earlier post I described it as a go team go mentality. People frequently say that other teams suck when compared to their own despite the fact that stats may suggest otherwise. In this case, the scriptures are the stats. Still, people fail to absorb and apply the very message they claim to embrace. This shortcoming only serves to feed the argument against them.

At a base level, Jesus was crucified because his words were twisted - one of the drawbacks of speaking in parables I suppose. In the Quran, and the first pillar of faith in Islam, it states that there is no other god but God. Worshiping the Prophet here is heresy and one of the main reasons that Muslims have issues with Christians, despite the FACT that Jesus is the most quoted Prophet in the Quran and that his mother Mary is mentioned somewhere around 32 times vs. less than 5 in the Bible. If "Christians" were actually aware of how revered Jesus is among Muslims they might actually be taken aback and have to re-channel some of the hate they are quick to summon at the very thought of Islam.

The message is the guide and in it the food for your soul, should you choose to partake. The prophet is only ever a vessel, but humans love all things tangible... especially if its got a cool logo.

love and hate are intangible much like God, yet you'll find few arguments disputing their existence. We can see the fruit of these things but we're hard pressed to see them in and of themselves.

[H20nly]

@ H20, you're arguing for a limited god then, one that has no control over evil. This is not the nature of most religions.
Most religions say god is all powerful, period. Again, if god is all powerful, then he could do something about starving children, but he doesn't, therefore he is either not all powerful, or he is not all good.

Atheists I've met for the most part could give a shit whether their beliefs are going to be thought of as humble or not. (to be an atheist you get a lot of flack from both traditional and hippy/eastern religious devotees, it's not something you can bring up without people wanting to argue with you, and believe me I do not argue with people because they state their religious beliefs, but the same is not true when I state my lack) That was never my argument.

My point was that the religious tend to think they have a key to the answer to life's mysteries, without any need for proof, it's called faith for a reason, and I do not see any humility in thinking that you can wish or prove gods existence by the act of sheer numbers or any other random non scientific faith based "truth". To me, arguing against evolution, the earth revolving around the sun, other religions, science in general, is the absolute definition of ego tripping. Seriously, priests still can't marry, preachers still call homosexuality a sin, and religion is still used to divide people all the time, yet atheists are told they are not humble because they don't attend the same church as you? It would be funny if it wasn't so annoying.

People should do something about starving people, young or old. There's plenty of food in the world.

I'm not arguing at all. I'm not even choosing sides, it just so happens that I spent a lot of time reading scriptures and teachings on many religions. I got locked up for 3 years for trafficing marijuana. I had a lot of "spare" time on my hands. I don't feel the need to argue one way or the other. Like I quoted "let your conscience be your guide". I have had experiences that moved me in a way that I've spent years trying to describe. At this point I have accepted that there is no describing it... at least fully.

I saw there was a dog pile of atheists in the thread so I chose to throw a few bones out there. The word god itself to me is weak. I have been fortunate enough to see this argument from the inside out instead of jumping on this bandwagon or that. I realized many years ago that this is the world's largest debate. It has raged for eons. Who am I to choose sides? I certainly am not blameless or without fault. When I was younger I chose to argue these points only to find that I was becoming ensnared too...

Pitch Black's mention of the golden rule really sums it up for me.

LOL @ atheists who act just like the religious zealots who fuel their atheism.

[LoopStationZebra]

H2Only hitting it out of the park.

[fishmonkey]

amen to that!

[McQ714]

Praise anyone or anything... as long as you live by the Golden Rule you're O.K. in my book.

this.


believing or not believing will not change what is. what ever... is.

depends on what your definition of "is" is...