Ableton Forum

By Odin's beard

I'm probably asking for trouble and common sense tells me to avoid this thread, but here goes anyway.


I am a deist.

I have yet to hear a convincing argument for atheism, yet I can think of many more arguments why there must be a creator.

I say people who are athiests either haven't really thought about the issue long enough, maybe have a limited perspective, are perhaps not comfortable with the possible moral implications or just don't care. No doubt there are other boxes that categorise atheism, but I can't think of them just now.

*insert HERE the next 20 pages where the non-believing heathens try and convince this chap that there is no God(s)*

distaudio wrote: I usually screw up church folk by asking.
"Do you believe you have a direct relationship with God?"
"So why do you require the church as your middle man?"

I think that's a fantastic statement and a great question to think about.

I think a lot of "church folk" really miss the point. And the point is that if we were to strip away all of the institutions, traditions, rituals, icons, holy books, etc. - even without all of that they can still have their faith.

I'm not sure why folks have the need to push their spiritual beliefs on others, and I feel that this goes for religious and non-religious people alike.

It's just as annoying to me to encounter some starry eyed christian youth that's begging to save me as it is to encounter some dirty punk rock kid that's trying desperately to convince me that there is no god.

The two are one and the same to me. Sure, they have different motivations, but please - don't try to convert me and please don't frown on me for what I choose to believe.

I believe in god - I just choose not to define my belief or my god with any sort of religion; and the extent that I do define it I do so with bits and pieces I pull from here and there. As much as my thoughts and definitions of my own personal relationship to god and the universe develop and change over the years, the main points I hold onto are that my god is loving, caring, and greater than myself. (12 steppers will feel me on that)

Beyond that, as far as the various religious text's and philosophies go, I find what works for me, take what I need, and forget about the rest.

I also think that while religion is often pursued as a tool to pursue spirituality, spirituality is distinctly separate from, and does not require religion.

I feel that spirituality (or lack of) is a deeply personal choice, and one that must be defined (or not defined) by every individual on their own. Whether we are atheist, agnostic, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish, whatever - I feel that it's great for a diverse groups of people to philosophise over their beliefs and share what works for them, but I also feel that it's wrong to push those beliefs on another person or look down on another person for what they believe.

At the end of the day, whether it's a good day or bad, I'm the one that has to be at peace with myself, and for me it's my faith and my spirituality that helps me to strive for that peace. For others it may be different.

I say live and let live.

I think a lot of you God's Army of One people are missing the point that for some people they see their spirituality strengthened in numbers, similarly to programs like AA and Weight Watchers. They just can't maintain or reach their goals on their own. So your "I have a personal relationship with God" doesn't work for all people or negate their needs. It's really not the spiritual buzzkill "gotcha!" response you think it is across the board.

My main problem with religion is people thinking the ancients were completely free from exaggeration of "truth" when many of the stories were stamped as "official" hundreds of years after the fact. I could tell you a story right now and 4 months later after passing through many people's telling of the same story it would be completely changed and exaggerated. It's also been proven that eye witness accounts are many times the worst kind of evidence when trying to determine fact. For these reasons I have to at the very least dub religion: highly doubtful.

beats me wrote:I think a lot of you God's Army of One people are missing the point that for some people they see their spirituality strengthened in numbers, similarly to programs like AA and Weight Watchers. They just can't maintain or reach their goals on their own. So your "I have a personal relationship with God" doesn't work for all people or negate their needs.

Well put, and I agree with you. I hope my post didn;t come off as a blanket statement.

I don't find anything wrong with it, and I agree with the strength in numbers concept - my point is that it isn't always necessary. It doesn't mean it's wrong.

I think some people get confused about the difference between the institution and the core beliefs, and the understanding that the institution is not necessary might help those folk's find their way, and once they've found their way they may be able to better utilize what the institution has to offer them.

If that makes any sense at all....

smutek wrote:

beats me wrote:I think a lot of you God's Army of One people are missing the point that for some people they see their spirituality strengthened in numbers, similarly to programs like AA and Weight Watchers. They just can't maintain or reach their goals on their own. So your "I have a personal relationship with God" doesn't work for all people or negate their needs.

Well put, and I agree with you. I hope my post didn;t come off as a blanket statement.

I don't find anything wrong with it, and I agree with the strength in numbers concept - my point is that it isn't always necessary. It doesn't mean it's wrong.

I think some people get confused about the difference between the institution and the core beliefs, and the understanding that the institution is not necessary might help those folk's find their way, and once they've found their way they may be able to better utilize what the institution has to offer them.

If that makes any sense at all....

I wasn't talking about you or anybody on this board in particular but a lot of people do feel "I have a personal relationship with God" is the be all/end all ZING! response to church goers…as if they can't both go to church and have a personal relationship with God.

In other opinions...

You really can't argue with people against the existence of God because you're arguing against something that there is no tangible undisputable proof of and that doesn't bother them in the slightest. You have no new proof of non proof.

It's actually really quite scary when you think about the implication of getting masses of people to believe in other ideals that can't be proven or substantiated. WWII anyone?

Empirical Agnostic.
...and if there is some supernatural being that kickstarted this universe, it is an asshole.

Organized Religion and Personal Faith = Oxymoron.

if god did create the universe and us he can only be described as an underachiever at best.

Hypomixolydian wrote:I'm probably asking for trouble and common sense tells me to avoid this thread, but here goes anyway.


I am a deist.

I have yet to hear a convincing argument for atheism, yet I can think of many more arguments why there must be a creator.

I say people who are athiests either haven't really thought about the issue long enough, maybe have a limited perspective, are perhaps not comfortable with the possible moral implications or just don't care. No doubt there are other boxes that categorise atheism, but I can't think of them just now.

Logic my friend. You're not using it. You posted what you believe and didn't back it up with any reason why you think there's a creator.

Here's my take:
The most likely scenario is we have no "souls", that death is the end. That our whole fixation on an afterlife and a creator is based on our own limited existence. We cannot fathom death therefore it simply doesn't exist, our souls live on, even though there is not a shred of proof otherwise. Same with a "creator", we cannot fathom a never ending universe with multiple Big Bangs, multiple universes even, endless in both space and time, so we have to have a father for it all.

This is not a limited perspective, it's taking into account mankinds own desire for immortality an importance and saying, well maybe we aren't that important in the bigger picture? and maybe our understanding is limited at best? It's actually a much more humble take than saying "I do not die, my soul lives forever, and god is looking out for me on some level". To me anyway, that's not thinking about the bigger picture at all, and a much more limited perspective. Thing is it plays into all our childhood fantasies of power, superheros, Santa, elves, vampires, etc.

I've had spiritual experiences that were very powerful and compelling, resulting in a (temporary) strong belief in a creator/universal mind/all loving oneness. But as the experience/memory fades I drift back to atheism. Then I proceed on to nihilism and that tends to be really exhausting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLXnFzdMKto

I'e had a lot of near god experiences browsing these forums, I think that about sums it up.

I believe the average Atheist will change their opinion on someone who has opened up about a spiritual or supernatural experience. I think a spiritual person will consider an Atheist someone who didn't luck out with a similar experience.

Therefore I think spiritual type religious people should keep it a private matter. Though its pretty safe for an Atheist to bs on and on and on.

tadpole fingers wrote:I believe the average Atheist will change their opinion on someone who has opened up about a spiritual or supernatural experience. I think a spiritual person will consider an Atheist someone who didn't luck out with a similar experience.

Therefore I think spiritual type religious people should keep it a private matter. Though its pretty safe for an Atheist to bs on and on and on.

nice.

a little guidance never hurt anyone.

"to know and yet not to do, is in fact not to know"

If you read the first part of Genesis its actually chronologically in line with evolution. Call it the hand of God or a natural selection, either way it is what it is. There's a lot of ways to tell a story but when trying to describe the profound all words fall short. The problem with religion is that people end up worshiping the Prophet. Then it becomes a go team go mentality just like football or any other sport. Trying to view God as some grandfather or judge on the bench is a feeble attempt at putting animal/human attributes on something thats bigger than all the forms of life and debris revolving east around stars in our skewed little view.

Moses heard "the still small voice"
Jesus went to the dessert
Buddha sat quiet and still under a tree
Muhammad meditated in a cave

the similarity is that they all sat down, shut the fuck up and listened.

...then... they moved the hearts and minds of men.

"the Kingdom of Heaven is neither here, nor there. Lo, the Kingdom of Heaven is within you." - J. Christ