Hypomixolydian wrote:I'm probably asking for trouble and common sense tells me to avoid this thread, but here goes anyway.
I am a deist.
I have yet to hear a convincing argument for atheism, yet I can think of many more arguments why there must be a creator.
I say people who are athiests either haven't really thought about the issue long enough, maybe have a limited perspective, are perhaps not comfortable with the possible moral implications or just don't care. No doubt there are other boxes that categorise atheism, but I can't think of them just now.
Logic my friend. You're not using it. You posted what you believe and didn't back it up with any reason why you think there's a creator.
Here's my take:
The most likely scenario is we have no "souls", that death is the end. That our whole fixation on an afterlife and a creator is based on our own limited existence. We cannot fathom death therefore it simply doesn't exist, our souls live on, even though there is not a shred of proof otherwise. Same with a "creator", we cannot fathom a never ending universe with multiple Big Bangs, multiple universes even, endless in both space and time, so we have to have a father for it all.
This is not a limited perspective, it's taking into account mankinds own desire for immortality an importance and saying, well maybe we aren't that important in the bigger picture? and maybe our understanding is limited at best? It's actually a much more humble take than saying "I do not die, my soul lives forever, and god is looking out for me on some level". To me anyway, that's not thinking about the bigger picture at all, and a much more limited perspective. Thing is it plays into all our childhood fantasies of power, superheros, Santa, elves, vampires, etc.
I would say that you are the one who is not using logic. I didn't back up my opinion because where do I even start? There are so many ways to defend my viewpoint. I tend to wait to hear why someone is an atheist before I try to support my argument.
In essence you are saying God doesn't exist because we are afraid of death and we invented him to prevent us from going nuts. Sorry mate, but that isn't much of an argument. The simple reason why I believe there is a God: the fact that we and everything else exist.
To pre-empt the usual where did God come from? It is a question derived within a limited empirical universe, which expects a limited empirical answer. At best it leads to the philosophical stalemate of we can never really know.
At the risk of sounding like some whacked out hippy (which is kind of what I am); God transcends our knowledge and understanding. As you say yourself, our understanding is limited. I totally agree. My limited knowledge is amazed at the intricacies of life, the universe and everything from the sub atomic to the biggest thing you can imagine and beyond. After much thought I came to the logical conclusion that there is a God out there who cares and has even communicated to us. As H2Only said:
If you read the first part of Genesis its actually chronologically in line with evolution. Call it the hand of God or a natural selection, either way it is what it is. There's a lot of ways to tell a story but when trying to describe the profound all words fall short.
It might sound simplistic, but what other way can there be? My belief isn't based on fear of death, but what I know, understand and have experienced.
There are many ways this discussion can go and whatever arguments you come up with I am sure can be counteracted. I've given you an inkling, albeit in a simple way of what I believe. The problem is that these discussions tend to be time consuming and draining, particularly via internet. Part of me doesn't want to get involved because I have other things to do and part of me thinks it is worth talking about.