Faith VS Atheism

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leedsquietman
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Re: Faith VS Atheism

Post by leedsquietman » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:26 am

People twist things for their own ends. People started WWII, atrocities and genocides in African countries and Bosnia etc and the rest. Has nothing to do with God, although some twist words and use it as propaganda and some weak minded people will believe it. Hitler said the Church was important before he could form a coalition government where his party had the power and needed votes to dominate and courted both Lutherans and Catholics, until he got into power and no longer needed their support or votes and quickly set about neutralizing ties and forcing laws that gave him absolute power, especially as some members of the Church were the first dissenters against his rule.

Africa would be a heck of a lot more messed up without donations from many Christian charity groups, who have built schools, donated livestock, and given much famine and leprosy/disease relief. This comes from many denominations and different religions. Non-believers have also played a huge role in charitable concerns too.

God is not responsible for AIDS, cancer or people getting stoned and burning their house down or dying from a smack overdose. These are mostly brought on by certain people and their own actions (i.e. you smoked 2 packs of cigarettes per day for 30 years and die of lung cancer) or natural phenomenons/disasters. If, according to the Bible, God did not intervene in saving his own son from a cruel death, why would God intervene on the failings of regular people.

Bad people use bad interpretations of religion for their own self interests. The mainstream churches are mostly promoting care, compassion, love, tolerance and diversity and not fuelling people up for Holy Wars.

Wacko rent a churches, as found increasingly in the Western World are a different story and they are what make for good TV. The cults and communes who need to be controversial to be heard make sure they grab the media attention with stupid stuff like those weirdo snake handling churches where some numpty often gets bitten by a venomous viper and ends up dead or in hospital and then is cast out as a 'sinner' and the David Koresh's of this world and racist paranoid views. Many (but not all, some are genuine believers and promote good values) Evangelists are a cash grab using religion as a front. It's rare you see a poor TV evangelist (unless they blew it all on coke and gay hookers on many trips to Vegas).

Yet, this represents a minority of Christian followers in the developed World, although growing at an alarming rate. Most people at my Church just go for some inner peace, to socialize a little and to decompress a bit from the stresses of life. You don't need religion to do this, but it works for some. Many people here are knocking it without having tried it. You should try it out for a while and then you can knock it from a more enlightened and valid position if nothing else ;)
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McQ714
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Re: Faith VS Atheism

Post by McQ714 » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:45 am

why is it that almost every time you ask a believer why he believes what he believes, his answer is, "because it's in the bible"?!?! this is the most illogical blind faith bullshit that i've ever heard! and sadly, it's why most people believe there is a god. you're actually going to tell me that you believe in god because a collection of stories, written by men, says that god exists? by that logic, there actually was a race between a tortoise and a hare.

news flash to the believers... we didn't just show up on Earth one day. evolution has been proven. now show me that god opened his mouth and out we came!

and i will also point out that the majority of christians that i've known or met, have their own interpretation of the bible and only follow what they choose to follow. quite a few hypocrites in there as well. they just seem to believe whatever is convenient for them. what's the point then? what do you get out of saying that you're christian if you don't do as the bible says? that is not what being a christian or a catholic or any other religious follower is supposed to be about. do or do not.. there is no try!

just be a good person to yourself as well as those around you. i know i motherfuck some of you guys but i honestly do not wish harm to anyone here and i'd be happy to grab a beer with any of you, unless you're mormon... then we'll get a rootbeer. those don't have caffeine or alcohol.

UKRuss
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Re: Faith VS Atheism

Post by UKRuss » Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:53 am

Here's how some lovely christian folk communicate with Richard Dawkins. Nice fan mail. :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxdxZ47J ... playnext=2

nuperspective
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Re: Faith VS Atheism

Post by nuperspective » Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:35 am

dum wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: Atheists believe the universe just is, no singular consciousness. It's a much more humble approach IMO.
Atheists deny the existence of god. I'm not sure that's any more humble than believing in god.
not really. atheists ask for the proof and if proof isn't forthcoming, dont resort to the fallback position of god must exist by default.

why does it need to resort to a popularity contest? believers are more moral / humble / caring / charitable than non-believers?

Hypomixolydian
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Re: Faith VS Atheism

Post by Hypomixolydian » Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:43 am

Machinesworking wrote: I believe in the Easter Bunny, because Easter exists. :)
Sorry mate, but your line of argument is invalid and no offence, but just a red herring. We are talking about real possibilities, aren't we? I think we can all agree that there is no such thing as the Easter bunny.
Machinesworking wrote: but religion always has this little niggle of self importance doesn't it?
So he communicated with some jews and white people 2k ago eh? JUst kinda lost touch let wwII, indian massacres, mass starvations, ethnic cleansings, libraries and scientists executed by christians just a couple hundred years after Jesus etc.. the list is endless of reasons to think that if god is communicating with people he really needs to get better operators, because he keeps on hitting up evangelists in the south and ex drug addicts in western countries, but missing places like the Congo and Gaza strip. If he cares, he has a really sick way of showing it, or he's racist. <-- not trolling with that, think about it for a second.
Leedsquietman and mikemc address that point to a certain degree.
nuperspective wrote:
"But just imagine how breathtakingly specific a work of prophecy could be if it were actually the product of omniscience. If the Bible were such a book, it would make specific, falsifiable predictions about human events. You would expect it to contain a passage like, "In the latter half of the twentieth century, humankind will develop a globally linked system of computers — the principles of which I set forth in Leviticus — and this system shall be called the Internet." The Bible contains nothing remotely like this. In fact, it does not contain a single sentence that could not have been written by a man or woman living in the first century."
Not all the world operates via the Gregorian calendar. Would you be happier if the Holy Books contained all sorts of mathematical principles and explained the laws of physics? We still don't fully understand them. Most people would be lost and confused, which defeats the purpose.

Most atheists want proof based on empirical evidence, which throughout history hasn't always shown itself to be correct. Empiricism does not compute the metaphysical world. If it is not empirical reasons to disbelieve then often it is refusing to believe because it is not under certain terms or conditions. Such as I will only believe if........ Being humble enough to accept the possibility that there is more going on out there than your limited perceptions can conceive is an important step.

I believe because I reached a logical conclusion formed within my limited understanding of life, the universe and everything.
Last edited by Hypomixolydian on Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

dum
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Re: Faith VS Atheism

Post by dum » Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:47 am

nuperspective wrote:
dum wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: Atheists believe the universe just is, no singular consciousness. It's a much more humble approach IMO.
Atheists deny the existence of god. I'm not sure that's any more humble than believing in god.
not really. atheists ask for the proof and if proof isn't forthcoming, dont resort to the fallback position of god must exist by default.

why does it need to resort to a popularity contest? believers are more moral / humble / caring / charitable than non-believers?
there's no 'not really' about it. Atheists deny the existence of god. PERIOD. the 'whys' are of little to no relevance to the meaning of the word. If you claim to be atheist, you claim to deny the existence of god. I suggest you get in touch with Oxford if you have an issue with how they're defining it.

"why does it need to resort to a popularity contest? believers are more moral / humble / caring / charitable than non-believers?" would be better directed at MW.
Pasha wrote:Thanks dum for being so precise.

tadpole fingers
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Re: Faith VS Atheism

Post by tadpole fingers » Sun Jun 13, 2010 3:27 pm

I see too much stereotyping in this thread. I believe the real discussion comes down to three questions:

Is this person pretending
Is this person crazy
Is this person truthful (although maybe deluded)

When someone says they experienced a break in physics or some impossible cascade of events or just way too many coincidences in a row and too many times over the course of their life, they will grasp for an excuse for it and will often be coming up with a vague notion of some higher power.

As an Atheist, you will probably go through those three questions in a split second and make up your mind about it just as quick, forever changing you're relationship with that person while you're at it.

Forget bible thumpers and those types because they are like babies who aren't worth the energy to discuss. This is more about your faith in the truthfulness of someone who is probably just living a normal unbiased life but who happens to also be reacting/responding to some sort of awkward funny business that they perceive to be happening to them.

The deeper issues are to do with communicating personal experiences and how those relations effect our opinions about each other.

Machinesworking
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Re: Faith VS Atheism

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:40 pm

Hypomixolydian wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: I believe in the Easter Bunny, because Easter exists. :)
Sorry mate, but your line of argument is invalid and no offence, but just a red herring. We are talking about real possibilities, aren't we? I think we can all agree that there is no such thing as the Easter bunny.
Cop out on your part, big time. You say god exists because the universe exists. It's a total red herring on your part because again the only evidence you deign to prove gods existence is an event which you imply insinuates gods existence, then when I use the Easter Bunny the same way you clearly see what I see when you use god.... bleh, it's hilarious really. The lamest proof of god is existence. I exists the universe exists, therefore god exists. Makes as much sense as saying the Easter Bunny exists because he's celebrated on Easter.

Later in your comeback you try to refute the validity of empirical evidence, yet offer no examples of why you believe this to be a valid line of thinking. Basically IMO you're feeling like god exists, and refuse to think about it. This is the grand and awful IMO artist/emo excuse, it should be regulated to fundamentalists, but in the end all religious people will use it.
Image

Machinesworking
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Re: Faith VS Atheism

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:49 pm

mikemc wrote:
Machinesworking wrote: If he cares, he has a really sick way of showing it, or he's racist. <-- not trolling with that, think about it for a second.
With any communication there is the interpretation, and I think the vast majority of the issues are with the interpreters.
Who according to all religions are the direct result of god. Every religion out there says a divine creator is all powerful. A creator that cannot know that his communications will be misinterpreted, is not all powerful.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Epicurius 341-270 BC


and still silence from the devout.

Machinesworking
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Re: Faith VS Atheism

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:53 pm

dum wrote: "why does it need to resort to a popularity contest? believers are more moral / humble / caring / charitable than non-believers?" would be better directed at MW.

The religious tend to paint themselves as being humble by stating flatly that they know the nature of the universe, they have an answer.
I find that disingenuous at best, and an annoying counter argument at worst.

leedsquietman
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Re: Faith VS Atheism

Post by leedsquietman » Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:10 pm

From whence comes evil - Satan according to many religions.

This plus bad people making their own choices and actions to do bad things in a similar way to a person choosing to drink 2 bottles of vodka then driving and causing a fatal accident is a cause and effect situation. Although it does pee me off a bit when these people then claim 'the devil made me do it' in an attempt to reduce personal culpability.

Most teachings (and many interpretations) on religion have moved on a bit since Old Testament days and the days of Epicurius, who was born long before New Testament times, which is the more respected and followed half of the Bible, at least in most mainstream Christian religion in modern times.
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LoopStationZebra
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Re: Faith VS Atheism

Post by LoopStationZebra » Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:21 pm

UKRuss wrote:Here's how some lovely christian folk communicate with Richard Dawkins. Nice fan mail. :roll:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxdxZ47J ... playnext=2
"Satan will enjoy torturing you...."

lol. Eh. Isn't that the opposite, actually? Won't Satan be giving Dawkins a medal or something? :lol:

*anyhoo*

Painting Christians with a broad brush because of something like this? meh. weak. funny material, but weak.
I came for the :lol:
But stayed for the :x

LoopStationZebra
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Re: Faith VS Atheism

Post by LoopStationZebra » Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:22 pm

The answer to all of this is right here. There's nothing that explains it better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L940yIeVZzE

/thread

:lol:
I came for the :lol:
But stayed for the :x

Machinesworking
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Re: Faith VS Atheism

Post by Machinesworking » Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:14 pm

leedsquietman wrote:From whence comes evil - Satan according to many religions.
From whence cometh Satan?
The answer has to be god, therefore god created evil.
Omnipotent benevolent beings are a logical fallacy.


This plus bad people making their own choices and actions to do bad things in a similar way to a person choosing to drink 2 bottles of vodka then driving and causing a fatal accident is a cause and effect situation. Although it does pee me off a bit when these people then claim 'the devil made me do it' in an attempt to reduce personal culpability.

Most teachings (and many interpretations) on religion have moved on a bit since Old Testament days and the days of Epicurius, who was born long before New Testament times, which is the more respected and followed half of the Bible, at least in most mainstream Christian religion in modern times.
Nothing in the New Testament negates or answers Epicurius.
Since everything in existence is at it's very core gods doing, then god created every logical fallacy and every evil event that ever happened or will happen.

taoyoyo
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Re: Faith VS Atheism

Post by taoyoyo » Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:19 pm

Not going to get involved in this one except to ask "What does an atheist scream when coming... "Oooh, chemical chance?"

(Thanks again Bill)
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