Everybody take a look at my lovely country...

[funky shit]

We fenians are just inferior.

[funky shit]

and we all support Celtic.

[dum]

@beats


Loyalists want to exert dominance over Nationalists by parading through their areas in full dress.

Or in american terms:
the KKK want to exert dominance over African-Americans by parading through Compton in white sheets.

So it's a blatant case of WTF were they thinking?

Kind of... because:

Is there any kind of historical reference anywhere when this kind of parading around had the desired effect and didn't instead result in an architectural food fight?

a riot IS the desired effect.

The police are biased, up until recently (2001) they were known as the 'Royal Ulster Constabulary' (including a crown in their crest etc), which is why they continue to allow and protect the parade (where it doesn't belong). I mean, in the news report the PSNI spokesperson at the end talks about the cost of policing equates to that of a children's ward, plus new schools, plus etc etc. The guy should consider taking his rhetoric to the parades commission or withdrawing heavily armed & violent police support (in nationalist areas) for such patently odious parades. I mean, not once in that report are the 'orange order' criticised for parading through nationalist areas, you barely even know that to be the case from watching the report if you aren't already fully informed.

[dum]

@beats
Loyalists want to exert dominance over Nationalists by parading through their areas in full dress.
Or in american terms:
the KKK want to exert dominance over African-Americans by parading through Compton in white sheets.

Now, now, I'm pretty sure if we asked one of the many Orangemen that frequent this board he wouldn't exactly state it like that. So if beats wants a 'both sides' thing, that ain't it.

Dry sarcasm ?
If not...sure, let us also entertain a KKK member's world-view while we're at it...


You're not boinking an irish chick by any chance are you ?
You just come across as one of those guys who dumps his love snot in an irish pussyhole and thinks he's somehow well versed in irish politics as a result.

[soultwist]

STOP THE PRESS!! News just in from the greater toronto area..

Except Toronto cops made over 100 arrests in the first day...NO arrests here? What the shit?

Also, no injured cops. Why? Because they put these "recreational protestors" (makes me sick) in their place and roughed them up as they pleased; something these same recreational protestors whined about for days in their tweets and in their "anti-establishment" blogs. But the instructions and locations for peaceful protests were clearly given. If you're in the red zone, anything goes. That cement block on the head could have been prevented by a sniper rifle from a slightly taller roof, a safe distance away is all I'm saying.

I'm not sure about the toronto stuff you refer to, so I can't comment on that (perhaps you should exercise the same thing in this discussion?)

but regarding these riots... you only know they are 'recreational' rioters because that is what you were told in a skewed broadcast. Keep that in mind. As for the slab that fell... well as you can see from the footage the riot squad are blasting a water canon up against the wall and blocks are falling from it as a result of the water (as well as other stuff being thrown). I thought it was peculiar the way they zoomed in on the slab that fell on the injured riot police, you couldn't see if it was thrown or if it fell from the wall due to the water like so many other slabs before it. Plus, they said it 'dropped' ..that seemed a little contrived to me too. It would have taken at least two men to lift that slab to chest height and throw it... I mean, I'm not going conspiracy nut here... but it just seems odd the way it was shown & worded in the report.

And this isn't some 'anti establishment' riot, this is a historical clash that has been taking place like clockwork for years. The solution is simply not allowing such a sectarian, provocative, incendiary, hateful parade to proceed through nationalist areas where it is clearly inappropriate and unwelcome.

And finally, the protest started off peaceful with civil disobedience (trying to block the parade passing through nationalist areas with human chains and 'sit-downs' etc) but it escalated, as per the script, when riot police initiated the violence.

Ahh, my mistake. I thought you were comparing these riots with G20 riots from few weeks back. Didn't see that leedsquietman was from GTA.

Agreed. The slab may have very well fallen off the wall. It's not about that. The video clearly shows masked 'recreational rioters' throwing shit in the next shot. Sketchy, one sided broadcast aside, I refuse to believe that riot police turned these innocent protestors into window smashing, car burning maniacs. Most of these people are "thrill seekers" looking for something exciting to do. And those who aren't there for the 'fun of it' and have a reason should really rethink why they are there. A historical clash is what may have happened in the 17th century, but today it's just an outlet for uneducated, young and angry kids to let loose. They don't give a shit about what happened four centuries ago.

I'm not trying to compare riots. I'm talking about people who participate in them. Civil disobedience is cool, and there was a designated spot for that here in Toronto, just a few blocks away from the mayhem (sadly, almost no coverage of it, but they were all there). They didn't have a bandana and a molotov's cocktail in their backpacks "in case some shit went down" and I bet those peaceful protestors forming human chains and sit-downs didn't either.

[MacGuffin]

I don't understand politics, personaly I'm just siding with Van Morrison... no matter what.

[dum]

The video clearly shows masked 'recreational rioters' throwing shit in the next shot. Sketchy, one sided broadcast aside, I refuse to believe that riot police turned these innocent protestors into window smashing, car burning maniacs. Most of these people are "thrill seekers" looking for something exciting to do. And those who aren't there for the 'fun of it' and have a reason should really rethink why they are there. A historical clash is what may have happened in the 17th century, but today it's just an outlet for uneducated, young and angry kids to let loose.

STOP THE PRESS!! News just in from the greater toronto area..

They don't give a shit about what happened four centuries ago.

Right, they give a shit about what's happening today.

Civil disobedience is cool, and there was a designated spot for that here in Toronto

laughing. my. fucking. ass. off.

Designated zones for civil disobedience...whatever next.

You don't have a fucking clue about this topic. your g20 riots might as well be knitting circles for all the similarities they have with the violence in ardoyne.

[beats me]

So it largely has to do with location, location, location. We still have limited KKK and Nazi marches in the states and while the backdrop of a government building may seem surreal or inappropriate, it has about the same political and social impact as would a group of homeless people spontaneously erupting into a production of Oklahoma.

And forgive my ignorance on this (or not), but the situation over there has been well out of the US news media spotlight for quite some time so I think we all just assumed it petered out similar to a prolonged bar fight that ends in exhausted sissy slaps and passing out in a pile.

[Angstrom]

@beats
Loyalists want to exert dominance over Nationalists by parading through their areas in full dress.
Or in american terms:
the KKK want to exert dominance over African-Americans by parading through Compton in white sheets.

Now, now, I'm pretty sure if we asked one of the many Orangemen that frequent this board he wouldn't exactly state it like that. So if beats wants a 'both sides' thing, that ain't it.

Dry sarcasm ?
If not...sure, let us also entertain a KKK member's world-view while we're at it...

yes, sarcasm.
But am also pointing out very roughly how they see themselves. If someone didn't know what an orangeman/loyalist marcher even is, it can't make any sense at all. Not that it makes any sense to anyone else.

As for me knowing all about Irish politics/history , I read a wikipedia page about it once. It was good.
So fuck you. etc.

[dum]

yes, sarcasm.
But am also pointing out very roughly how they see themselves. If someone didn't know what an orangeman/loyalist marcher is, it's a pretty "interesting" thing to take a look at.
if the KKK described themselves as an oppressed community and went on marches through Native American Reservations, singing historical songs of racial war - that might be a bit closer

As for me knowing all about Irish politics/history , I read a wikipedia page about it once. It was good.
So fuck you. etc.

Absolutely, the rest of your post was a nice 'dummies guide' to the orange order, no doubt. But the ambiguous opener needed clarification for our international brethren who might not recognise it as sarcasm...

I believe the KKK comparison is nigh on perfect, but ya perhaps a reservation would have been a better choice than compton... also, the orange order claiming to be victimised is patently spin - spin the KKK have yet to employ. And I'm not even being flippant here, remember they've got NAMBLA in the states.

edit: wow, how many times did you edit that post ? I just realised the version I quoted isn't even the one I read. Pretty significant edits too.

[Angstrom]

edit: wow, how many times did you edit that post ? I just realised the version I quoted isn't even the one I read. Pretty significant edits too.

I know, I'm an edit freak.
The thing is: it's a cloudy enough topic already so I wanted to get more directly to my point rather than dancing around it like a twat.
Failed.

[soultwist]

The video clearly shows masked 'recreational rioters' throwing shit in the next shot. Sketchy, one sided broadcast aside, I refuse to believe that riot police turned these innocent protestors into window smashing, car burning maniacs. Most of these people are "thrill seekers" looking for something exciting to do. And those who aren't there for the 'fun of it' and have a reason should really rethink why they are there. A historical clash is what may have happened in the 17th century, but today it's just an outlet for uneducated, young and angry kids to let loose.

STOP THE PRESS!! News just in from the greater toronto area..

They don't give a shit about what happened four centuries ago.

Right, they give a shit about what's happening today.

Civil disobedience is cool, and there was a designated spot for that here in Toronto

laughing. my. fucking. ass. off.

Designated zones for civil disobedience...whatever next.

You don't have a fucking clue about this topic. your g20 riots might as well be knitting circles for all the similarities they have with the violence in ardoyne.

Ugh. You missed the point AND insulted me at the same time. Well done. Where did you get that wanking smiley btw?

Edit: Ah never mind, got it.

[funky shit]

In other news. Derry (where im from) won the UK City of Culture 2013 shite.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-10653989

Dont know where that Londonderry place is tho.

[Machinesworking]

OK big question I know, but what do you irish think is the solution?
Looking at dum here mainly as he might have some ideas.

From an outsiders view with spotty history of Ireland in general this is how it seems:
-UK moves a bunch of poor scots and english into Ireland to basically run the place after taking over.
-They steal property and jobs from the irish, and hand them over to the "new" irish.
-Some come and start businesses on their own etc.
-Years later not all the "new" irish are rich, they are now what we call orange.
-In the north, the orange are still protected as loyalists, but with some trepanation as the ulster crowd is into mob style crap as well.
I'm probably off on this, but this is what I'm told is going on.

WTF is a solution to resolve this that would work?
Sending a couple million sons and daughters of the original people who stole property back to England isn't going to happen, and unless free Ireland decides to go
Anarcho-syndicalist or some other wealth spreading form of government besides capitalism then redistributing the wealth took is lost...

Fuck I don't know shit about this, and how it could work, why I'm asking. Even if all of Ireland was free, what would the solution be?

[leedsquietman]

I am of Irish Catholic descent with a living 'fenian' grandfather (who actually does support Celtic, unsurprisingly). I agree banning the Orange Order march makes perfect sense, but then you get all the same 'peaceful protest rights violations' by various 'human rights' groups and the cliches 'well if we ban this march, we have to ban all marches, all fundraising for cancer, etc' guff which always comes out.

The G20 riots in Toronto were a totally different thing but the troubles were the usual rent-a-mob. The police did nothing on the first day because they didn't know what to do, as this type of disorder is just not heard of in recent times, so while rogue protesters were smashing property and firebombing and getting away with it, the next day the police started cracking skulls (like they should have done on day one) - only problem being, like a missile attack on Iraq, a lot of innocent people got their skulls cracked and arrested too (although some of them were numpties who ignored advice and if they had common sense would have cleared out long before they did). Over 1000 arrests by the end of the summit and only a few charges laid.