Everybody take a look at my lovely country...

[dum]

Quick response, but I'll be back later.

After being asked to elaborate... you did. And as I expected - it was loyalists that you were referring to.

Perhaps you should have made that clear from the onset as opposed to painting the entire island as nutters.

[Angstrom]

well, Ireland does contain them.
that's what I meant

[funky shit]

[dum]

well, Ireland does contain them.
that's what I meant

Maybe you should re-read the original statements to which I asked for your elaboration.

[Machinesworking]

I mean really, we want to give it back.
But it's got lots of crazy people on it.

The simple fact is you can always take troops home.
Again just like in the crap idea thrown out about Iraq and the USA needing to stay there to calm things down,
the idea that the conflict will magically go away after X amount of years by a continued military and economic foreign presenceis patently ridiculous.
Sure, it's probably just politicians being pussies and not wanting to lose support etc. and no doubt things would probably get a lot more ugly before they got better, but as it stands England IMO is just aggravating the situation at every turn.

Back to this:

I think you have a slightly out of date idea of what the UK government might want here, and what the situation is.

Really? so allowing or not doing anything to get the local government to stop protecting loyalist marches in republican areas is somehow up to date?
You claim that England wants out of Northern Ireland, well a start is supporting basic rights of the republicans. I see no actual indication that England wants out, I see a lot of hand wringing and posing like they want out.

Also, don't bullshit a bullshitter. The UK was right behind the USA in Iraq, and your government on many levels is far more politically aware and capable of using reason when it wants to. IMO there was never any consideration on the part of the british government about Iraq beyond it being a strategic move. Why else would the ex colonialists step back into the middle east on such idiotic and anti democratic campaign? Preemptive strikes in former colonies, brilliant. At least we can use our cowboy culture and relative newness to the world stage as excuses, your country has thousands of years of dealing with this stuff. All I'm saying is your government is full of liars, they will tell you they would like a solution to the problem of Northern Ireland, but in reality they do nothing to try to resolve it, that says to me they have another agenda than the one they present to the public.

[Angstrom]

The simple fact is you can always take troops home.
Again just like in the crap idea thrown out about Iraq and the USA needing to stay there to calm things down,

In November 2004 there were 11,000 British soldiers in Northern Ireland - down from a peak figure of about 30,000 in the mid 1970s.
In 2010 there are 1500 UK troops in Northern Ireland
Troop numbers have been steadily reducing, as you suggest.

The UK was right behind the USA in Iraq, and your government on many levels is far more politically aware and capable of using reason when it wants to.

Yes,Don't get me wrong, the UK government are villains of the highest order, but they follow the money. there's not enough Oil in NI to pay for the action. Otherwise they'd be all over it like a fucking rash.

[dum]

No, I am fully prepared for Dum to solve Ireland. Good luck Dum. Go for it!

Ireland has several million people who have a giant beef with each other, and who all hold different (conflicting ) and somewhat insane ideas about the world that many other people would not subscribe to. And that is a massive over-simplification.

what, pray tell, are the 'somewhat insane' ideas that several million Irish citizens subscribe to ?

Um, heard of "The mainland". Personally I think that's pretty odd.
King Billy the king of peace, tried to keep his calm in the face of some nasty men and was forced to calm things down.
that is also a pretty odd interpretation. Perhaps you disagree.

What an utterly utterly pathetic response. There are approx 1.5 million folks in N.Ireland, Roughly 50/50 nationalist/unionist (not accounting for the politically or socially ambivalent). So you're talking about 750,000 people there including babies and the decrepit who subscribe or are likely to subscribe to the unionist shite you are now saying you were initially referring to.

So, you see how that is a ridiculous elaboration of your initial statement - right ?
I mean, it may be the truth, but what you said initially is a completely disingenuous representation of that truth to the point of out-right lying.

I can spot that, because I'm Irish. Anyone else reading would just take what you say at face value, and you must certainly be aware of that - you being such a clever man (jerkoff.gif)

So asking someone "what do you think is the solution?" to this multidimensional nexus of hate and mistrust which is bred in generation after generation and celebrated as a culture. It's not that simple. Unfortunately even the best ideas can be derailed if you are dealing with people that fucking hate your guts. plenty of "solutions" have been tried. The current situation is the outcome of all the genius ideas put into practice so far.

bred in generation after generation ?
You are peddling the age old british apathy argument - which suggests that no one group is singularly to blame, gleefully glossing over the historical (recent & not-all-that-distant) root of the problem.
hate & mistrust bred in and celebrated as culture ?
Elaborate. Really, do. Should be very interesting.
Plenty of solutions have been tried ?
Elaborate. Substantiate.

hate & mistrust bred in and celebrated as culture ?
Elaborate. Really, do. Should be very interesting.

The orange order celebrates something which was essentially a series of battles to subdjugate the natives. This gets justified using an elaborate mythology and demonisation of 'papists'. this is handed down from father to son and continues to this day. Anyone raised in the late 20th C /early 21st might think this was weird and outdated, but they call it a culture and celebrate it

Again - you see how this is a bullshit elaboration for the initial statement, right ?
That - again - is the truth, but represented so egregiously poorly it amounts to lying through sweeping statements and false generalisations with barely a hair of connection to the actual facts. the facts you now claim to have been referring to.

and btw, I also put the following to you:

Plenty of solutions have been tried ?
Elaborate. Substantiate.

As with your previous 'elaborations', it should be very interesting.

Ya, MW was naive to ask me for a 'solution' to the greater issue. But you chose to mock me for being asked, not MW for asking the question. Awesome. And what is your reason for insulting my intelligence in such a way ? You're suggesting I'm some kind of retard - so substantiate if you can.

Mocking me groundlessly is a give-away, if it isn't already clear, to readers which way you are biased on this issue. Textbook british indifference to the problems they cause, and can solve (gtfo). The british recognise the rights of their settlers as equal to that of the oppressed indigenous.

Mocking me groundlessly is a give-away, if it isn't already clear, to readers which way you are biased on this issue. Textbook british indifference to the problems they cause, and can solve (gtfo). The british recognise the rights of their settlers as equal to that of the oppressed indigenous.

I wasn't mocking you, I was was being flippant though and I can. That's right , I can.
Because face it : on this forum you are a griefer. Your username is a griefer name. You cant act all holier than thou when someone laughs at asking the griefer for the solution to a fucking giant problem like this.


All of a sudden 5 years of griefing melts into the background?
Very touchy man for someone who dishes out insults all the time eh? A bit quick to judge eh?

I love that you think you have my "bias" down. Good work there sherlock
I want NI to be part of Eire.

hehe, comprehension failure.
I'm not sore that you were flippant with me. You can call me whatever you like, but being a griefer and being a retard are two different things. I'm not calling you out for being flippant - I'm simply asking you to substantiate your assertion that I am not the right person to comment on the issues in my own country ? Your forum drama response is not really much of a justification in that regard.

Regarding bias, there are three sides to this. 1:republican - 2:unionist - 3:actively apathetic (i.e. british indifference "it's a bloody unsolvable mess" mentality)

And I think you have been trying to pass off an actively apathetic view of the whole situation. For anyone reading who is completely oblivious to this issue, I would say some of the comments you have made are heinously false. It takes my probing and calling you out for 'what you really meant' to come to the surface - which has been in stark contrast in sentiment to your initial comments.

Frankly you want to try fucking reading what I wrote. You seem to think I'm insulting the Irish, when I'm insulting the marchers. That's pretty bad comprehension right there.

ha! really, ha! ... a very fucking convenient edit to make after being called out for making egregiously ambiguous and ludicrous sweeping statements in reference to the whole island when referring specifically to the orange order.

btw, I also put this to you:

I think funky is right in that the first thing that should happen is they should knock the fuck off from marching through republican areas, that's disrespectful and stupid. Dum if he's not annoyed/teed off about the side tracking from the original subject would probably have something interesting to say as well.

this illustrates my point about over simplification.If there was such a simple solution, and it worked. It would have been done.

That idea seems sensible of course: simply stop marching through republican areas!
Now suggest it to the Orangemen and see if they stop. Now try stopping them and see what happens.
Witness the "oppression of traditions", and see the violence that ensues.

I can't begin to convey the various collective underlying insanities, hatreds and fantasy histories that underpin a continuation of this shit . Rational it ain't.
It's all about passionate emotions and identity.

Go ahead and try to convey...at least elaborate on this statement.
Fantasy histories ? who's ? elaborate. substantiate. Underlying insanities ? who's ? elaborate. substantiate.

Given the rest of your responses I'm sure it's going to be very interesting although entirely predictable. 'what you really meant' was the orange order are the guys with fantasy histories and underlying insanities. OK, check.

[dum]

The simple fact is you can always take troops home.
Again just like in the crap idea thrown out about Iraq and the USA needing to stay there to calm things down,

In November 2004 there were 11,000 British soldiers in Northern Ireland - down from a peak figure of about 30,000 in the mid 1970s.
In 2010 there are 1500 UK troops in Northern Ireland
Troop numbers have been steadily reducing, as you suggest.

And as I have said on several occasions, the comparative 'cooling down' of Northern Ireland has been attributable to an economic boom. That there are less british jackboots on irish soil is merely representative of this cooling down. It's hardly any indication of any political intentions of withdrawing. Troop numbers reflect necessity. Oh, and how's things in afghanistan & iraq ?

[beats me]

In the states we have freedom of speech including hate speech and also freedom of assembly so you can gather the haters. However it's illegal to yell fire in a crowded building that's not on fire because of all the potential panic, injury, and damage it could cause. I don't see how these marches or assemblies in volatile areas should be any different. The point is so obviously not going to be made and the possibility of violence is quite high. So I don't see why these things need to be protected under any law. There's plenty of other square footage you can stage your protest and not have your point lost in predictable violence.

Similarly but much less serious you can't just grab your music gear and a power generator and set up wherever you want because you're potentially going to piss people off. And also similarly you can get permits for that type shit but they aren't going to just hand you a permit and an open map to the city and tell you to setup wherever you like. There's just certain areas you are never going to be able to blast music, period.

[Angstrom]

lots of things

tldr;

you are an angry man and just dying to take issue with anything
so it's pointless me saying anything isn't it.
so that's that.
keep on raging

[alex.the.forge]

He's just not looking himself is he?

Q: What's the difference between apples and oranges?
A: there's no such thing as an apple bastard.

[funky shit]

He's just not looking himself is he?

Q: What's the difference between apples and oranges?
A: there's no such thing as an apple bastard.

WIN

[alex.the.forge]

Actually apparently I'm distantly related to one of the Belfast mayors who was a prominent orangeman. Not something I usually admit in public because I personally think they are a bunch of bastards purely because of that march, which is about all I know about them anyway.... but then recently my dad's sister looked into the family tree and while I knew my grandad's family left belfast before the partition, which I assumed was because of the troubles, we always thought they went to Canada, but it turns out they actually went to Dublin. Not something I would think you'd do if you were Orange or Protestant at that time, so I think that gets us off. I guess our side were catholic or republican or something.....???

Turns my grandad didn't actually move to Canada till he was an adult in his 20s and got married and had a son in America and none of us knew anything about it!

My dad went to his grave thinking his old man was Belfast born Canadian who moved to England during the war. He knew he stopped off in Ireland first, but no idea why. The ould bastard just never, ever talked about his past at all. So fuck knows what went on there but I'd sure as hell like to find out. Apparently we have family in Dublin and everything.

[beats me]

Actually apparently I'm distantly related to one of the Belfast mayors who was a prominent orangeman. Not something I usually admit in public because I personally think they are a bunch of bastards purely because of that march, which is about all I know about them anyway.... but then recently my dad's sister looked into the family tree and while I knew my grandad's family left belfast before the partition, which I assumed was because of the troubles, we always thought they went to Canada, but it turns out they actually went to Dublin. Not something I would think you'd do if you were Orange or Protestant at that time, so I think that gets us off. I guess our side were catholic or republican or something.....???

Turns my grandad didn't actually move to Canada till he was an adult in his 20s and got married and had a son in America and none of us knew anything about it!

My dad went to his grave thinking his old man was Belfast born Canadian who moved to England during the war. He knew he stopped off in Ireland first, but no idea why. The ould bastard just never, ever talked about his past at all. So fuck knows what went on there but I'd sure as hell like to find out. Apparently we have family in Dublin and everything.

I'm related to the unabomber in a third cousin twice removed type way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unibomber

Although not mentioned by wikipedia it should also be noted that he also isn't a fan of hip hop listenership.

[Machinesworking]

lots of things

tldr;

you are an angry man and just dying to take issue with anything
so it's pointless me saying anything isn't it.
so that's that.
keep on raging

You're copping out. I think it's because you know you've painted a prettier picture of eventual english withdrawal from NI than even you believe, and it's true IMO that calling it a crazy complicated situation is just an excuse to not look at the facts.

Dum and his online personality isn't the issue here methinks.