Solid state hard drives?

Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production
hacktheplanet
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Re: Solid state hard drives?

Post by hacktheplanet » Thu May 05, 2011 6:17 pm

H20nly wrote:^ the scary part is... to some extent, the companies could want this.

i mean if iPods only lasted the typical user 4 years this would sell more iPods than if they lasted 10 right? whats a good way to limit the life expectancy of a device that focuses on file transfers?
That would explain why I have to buy a new cell phone every 10 months because they simply stop working after that period.
I hate technology.
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H20nly
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Re: Solid state hard drives?

Post by H20nly » Thu May 05, 2011 6:17 pm

@ pulsoc - dude are you even reading what i'm writing?

yeah
pulsoc wrote:iPhone, iPod Touch, iPod Nano - ssd.
that

H20nly
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Re: Solid state hard drives?

Post by H20nly » Thu May 05, 2011 6:18 pm

the_planet wrote:I hate technology.
it's bitter sweet. that's for sure.

pulsoc
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Re: Solid state hard drives?

Post by pulsoc » Thu May 05, 2011 6:20 pm

I'm reading a bunch of shit with no analysis or information to back it up. You're just repeating a speculation which is wrong.

So yes, I have been reading what you were writing.

H20nly
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Re: Solid state hard drives?

Post by H20nly » Thu May 05, 2011 6:25 pm

:roll: i said they have a finite number of writes. it's no secret.

if you're disputing that... use your preferred search engine to do it.

i also said i've seen programs write enough logs to fill up an entire hard drive (the free space).
with a standard 7200 rpm drive... you delete them, no harm done. with an SSD... sorry, but you used part of your write limit. how much depends on the SSD.

pulsoc
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Re: Solid state hard drives?

Post by pulsoc » Thu May 05, 2011 6:33 pm

What programs write log files that fill up a 100 g hd?? That's ridiculous, and I (and I would bet most people on this forum) have never experienced anything like it.

I suggest YOU do some research, the write endurance issue relies on each cell being written - a million times. So if you record your bass part a million times to the SAME location - yeah, you might run into an issue.

These drives are going to last much longer than the computer you are running them in. And it's not like spinning platters have a monopoly on immortality - I've had 2 die on me. SSD's are much more reliable mechanically.

hacktheplanet
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Re: Solid state hard drives?

Post by hacktheplanet » Thu May 05, 2011 6:34 pm

H20nly wrote::roll: i said they have a finite number of writes. it's no secret.

if you're disputing that... use your preferred search engine to do it.

i also said i've seen programs write enough logs to fill up an entire hard drive (the free space).
with a standard 7200 rpm drive... you delete them, no harm done. with an SSD... sorry, but you used part of your write limit. how much depends on the SSD.
Yes, but it will still take like 5-10 years of use to approach the limits. By that time one would hope you have upgraded. And lord knows how many mechanical hard drives I've had over the years that just took a huge shit in less than 2 years.

edit: Your argument here is that SSDs are unreliable. The thing is, mechanical drives are the only real alternative right now, and they're even less reliable!
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H20nly
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Re: Solid state hard drives?

Post by H20nly » Thu May 05, 2011 7:04 pm

pulsoc wrote:What programs write log files that fill up a 100 g hd?? That's ridiculous,
no, its not. it's only ridiculous if it's intentional...
pulsoc wrote:I suggest YOU do some research, the write endurance issue relies on each cell being written - a million times. So if you record your bass part a million times to the SAME location - yeah, you might run into an issue.
i suggest that if you're going to keep spouting off about research that you become a lot more accurate than you've proven to be thus far with these guesstimations. there's more than one way to skin a cat and there's more than one SSD model. you pulled this thing you're positioning as "fact" out your ass.
pulsoc wrote:These drives are going to last much longer than the computer you are running them in. And it's not like spinning platters have a monopoly on immortality - I've had 2 die on me. SSD's are much more reliable mechanically.
so lets take the time you've been using spinning platters (with the 2 times you've had failures)... now take the amount of time you've had an SSD (with no failures)... and compare the two.
if the second number is even marginally larger than half the first this would make you:
A. born sometime in the 90's
or
B. new to using computers

regardless... it makes you an expert in jack shit (other than spending loot).

:roll: whatever.
you want what i'm writing to be wrong so bad? fine:

*SSDs have infinite writes.

*you can never possibly use up an SSD.

*no program has ever created multiple logs.

have fun with that, but answer me one question.... how many times can you stick one up your ass and it keep working?

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Re: Solid state hard drives?

Post by H20nly » Thu May 05, 2011 7:57 pm

somebody who must be completely wrong as well left this on the internet:

http://www.informationweek.com/blog/sto ... ed_IWK_All

dated... yesterday :?: :?:
The environment in which you use solid state storage will also directly impact how long it will last. Certain environments may wear through the drives much sooner than the five years that is often touted, while others may see a significantly longer life. In an upcoming entry, I will discuss how the various environments and use-cases can impact solid state.
:? certain events? probably nothing to do with audio. probably.


there doesn't appear to be any comments under the article. if you hurry you can be the first to tell the author that he's wrong too and that he's writing...
pulsoc wrote: a bunch of shit with no analysis or information to back it up.
and that he's...
pulsoc wrote:just repeating a speculation which is wrong.

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Re: Solid state hard drives?

Post by pulsoc » Thu May 05, 2011 8:27 pm

Your article contains no actual numbers (aside from mentioning the 5 year figure often bandied about), and is dealing with enterprise customers (machines built to work 24 hrs/day non-stop).

How about this one?

http://www.storagesearch.com/ssdmyths-endurance.html

"As a sanity check - I found some data from Mtron (one of the few SSD oems who do quote endurance in a way that non specialists can understand). In the data sheet for their 32G product - which incidentally has 5 million cycles write endurance - they quote the write endurance for the disk as "greater than 85 years assuming 100G / day erase/write cycles" - which involves overwriting the disk 3 times a day."

I'm done arguing this with you. Unless you run an audio production house this is a non-issue.

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Re: Solid state hard drives?

Post by H20nly » Thu May 05, 2011 9:40 pm

pulsoc wrote:Your article contains no actual numbers (aside from mentioning the 5 year figure often bandied about), and is dealing with enterprise customers (machines built to work 24 hrs/day non-stop).

How about this one?

http://www.storagesearch.com/ssdmyths-endurance.html
so let me get this straight.
first you attack me for not having sources. then when i give you a source, you don't like what the author is saying (because it pretty much agrees exactly with what little i said on the subject) so you counter with an article on a poorly formatted web page that is pretty much a giant add space for SSDs

:lol:
pulsoc wrote:"As a sanity check - I found some data from Mtron (one of the few SSD oems who do quote endurance in a way that non specialists can understand). In the data sheet for their 32G product - which incidentally has 5 million cycles write endurance - they quote the write endurance for the disk as "greater than 85 years assuming 100G / day erase/write cycles" - which involves overwriting the disk 3 times a day."
this is from the sales team right?

funny how a million writes can last 5 - 10 years but 5 million writes can last 85 years. i would wanna put my money in their bank... but marketing has a tendency to be... exaggerations or... just plain lies.

* and remember... over half the writes are used for deletion and formatting, not your actual data.

since you trust these people like you do, maybe what they have to say about power failures and SSDs will interest you:
http://www.storagesearch.com/ssd-power-going-down.html


you indicated that you want numbers. here's a number for you:
two flash deficiencies that... will cause unpredictable performance and reduce reliability
http://www.informationweek.com/news/storage/229400980


in regard to enterprise customers... is it your argument that with lower grade equipment you'll get better results at home? or that because a machine is on it must be writing to something? hmmm, like what, a log?


you pop in and attack me for having no facts (from the interwebz). so i get you facts (from the interwebz)... from InformationWeek, a trusted source, writing from an objective standpoint, and you rebuttal with what amounts to an online version of an SSD trade show complete with sales teams ready to take your order.
pulsoc wrote:I'm done arguing this with you.
good.

you should have never bothered. it was a discussion before you showed up.

i would like to thank you for making me decide to look though. now i know that my suspicions about the state of SSD technology were valid all along - yeah, its a good technology, but it's still got a little way to go before the cost justifies replacing what i already use. hopefully the OP will get the answers he was looking for as well.

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Re: Solid state hard drives?

Post by arachnaut » Thu May 05, 2011 10:18 pm

My own feeling is that if you don't have paging on an SSD, just install Windows OS (using that as an example), and then link Documents and Settings and the User folders to external drives, you will do very well.

You won't even need a very large drive to do this. Symlinks hard links and all sorts of mount points are easy to make in Windows, you just need to read a bit and dig a little. You can even mount drives as folder names to eliminate drive letters.

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Re: Solid state hard drives?

Post by hacktheplanet » Fri May 06, 2011 4:11 am

How about just get a hybrid drive? The most frequently accessed data is written to the SS portion, while frequently written-to and less-often accessed files are located on a mechanical platter.

As for me, if I had the spare cash to throw around I'd buy an SSD in heartbeat and continue making regular backups to my mechanical drive. I tend to upgrade hard drives every year anyway, and a new laptop every three years or so.
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Re: Solid state hard drives?

Post by H20nly » Fri May 06, 2011 4:59 pm

arachnaut wrote:My own feeling is that if you don't have paging on an SSD......... you will do very well.
this... and...
the_planet wrote:How about just get a hybrid drive? The most frequently accessed data is written to the SS portion, while frequently written-to and less-often accessed files are located on a mechanical platter.
this is probably the best way to maximize the life expectancy of an(y) SSD... (whether it "needs" it or not).

i'd store my data on one in a heart beat. running an O.S. and applications/temps off one... creates too many variables in IMO.

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Re: Solid state hard drives?

Post by davepermen » Sat May 07, 2011 6:58 am

H20nly wrote:+1 for backups. no doubt.

i still think that as (computer based) musicians... we'd put a lot of load on an SSD. much more so than a typical user. at least, i would. i record audio tracks... vocals, bass, guitar. it's nothing for me to write to a drive 100 times in a session. then there's everything else that people do with their computers too.
recording audio is not much data. cd quality is about half a gigabyte per hour. double that for higher quality (trible it if you want), and you're still FAAAR away from hurting your ssd in any major way.

the write issue is massively overblown in the internet. the main reason most likely: it's an anti-envy-fix. it allows you to feel good to not have one by stating "they're not ready yet". believe me, they are. i use them since 2.5 years now, and could never ever move back. do i care if one dies after 5 years? no. so did most of my hdds, but at random moments, not at a moment you can prepare for.

musicians are not that heavy users of a disk. there are much worse things. actually, a simple guy browsing the web all day long might be more hurtful (tons of tiny random writes to the cache. ssds don't like that. and even then, they're made for it, so it won't kill them).

if you can life with the size issue (some can't as they need huuuuge libraries), then an ssd is the way to go for fast performance, no clipping issues due to hdd accesses while playback, silence and stability while on stage, even while dropping the laptop on stage. i'm on stage with a 160gb ssd since about two years (smaller one before), and it's great.
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