the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

[crumhorn]

Normally I'm the last person to come to the defence of DJs. But I would think, by your own definition, that when they mix tracks that play in tune and in time with each other they are in fact thinking in terms of musical parameters, ie. pitch, tempo and scale tonality.

[9V]

Normally I'm the last person to come to the defence of DJs. But I would think, by your own definition, that when they mix tracks that play in tune and in time with each other they are in fact thinking in terms of musical parameters, ie. pitch, tempo and scale tonality.

i like djs, expecially trance, psytrance, techno performers. But i don't consider them musicians. And they don't consider themselves musicians, i guess.

[ian_halsall]

even I am bored of this now and nobody even liked my cathedral/Berlusconi/John Prescott joke.

I am going to read up on 'exactly what is music?' and cry myself to sleep

[stringtapper]

hey, we have the new chopin here and i have ignored him

That's really all you have? A "joke?"

Face it, you tried to look smart by starting this "discussion" and then realized that you were out of your depth. Now all you've got is "jokes." Pathetic.

If you'd like to present your "ideas" to a forum that can match your level of "competence" I would suggest you subscribe to the SMT-talk list (That's the Society of Music Theory) and post it there. I'll be looking for your email.

http://societymusictheory.org/node/8/elists

[9V]

Face it, you tried to look smart by starting this "discussion"...

Excuse me, sir professor (LOL), but the only one who tries to look smart is you

[trevox]

Face it, you tried to look smart by starting this "discussion"...

Excuse me, sir professor (LOL), but the only one who tries to look smart is you

I have seen posts by stringtapper before and he certainly does not come across as an arrogant know-it-all and the fact is, he does know quite a bit about music. The difference is he does not feel the need to validate it by posting questions and answering every post with "you're wrong" - there is no point in that. On the other hand, you are arrogant and seem to know very little about music. You started a thread trying to open a discussion as a question ("what is music"?) and have proceeded to tell EVERYONE that they are wrong rather than taking on board what people are saying and expanding on those ideas. I thought that was the reason you posted - to have an open discussion? Clearly not. Well you have your 20 pages of posts now telling you that you are somewhat misguided - is that what you wanted?

I said in the first page that this thread should be deleted, but yet I came back to it over and over again - something I am not proud of. I would liken it to geting addicted to a really crap reality TV show - you watch them and feel like someone has stolen part of your life from you every time - but you still go back. You have stolen part of my life - I want it back.

BTW - I would love to hear your music, I really would. I have been writing electronic music (not the commercial kind) for 20 years or so and would be happy to review it for you. You may have to send you MIDI files to me so I can get a true appreciation for it though.

[stringtapper]

You started a thread trying to open a discussion as a question ("what is music"?) and have proceeded to tell EVERYONE that they are wrong rather than taking on board what people are saying and expanding on those ideas. I thought that was the reason you posted - to have an open discussion? Clearly not.

This is probably the only point left that's worth making in this ruin of a thread. The fact is this is a very interesting topic, one that is directly related to one of my particular areas of study, and it's really sad to see what could have been an interesting conversation turn into what looks like it should have spawned on a video game forum full of teenagers.

[drewbixcube]

i never work with samples.

i own stylus rmx and omnisphere

[crumhorn]

You started a thread trying to open a discussion as a question ("what is music"?) and have proceeded to tell EVERYONE that they are wrong rather than taking on board what people are saying and expanding on those ideas. I thought that was the reason you posted - to have an open discussion? Clearly not.

This is probably the only point left that's worth making in this ruin of a thread. The fact is this is a very interesting topic, one that is directly related to one of my particular areas of study, and it's really sad to see what could have been an interesting conversation turn into what looks like it should have spawned on a video game forum full of teenagers.

I feel just the same. It's an interesting subject and a lot of people obviously have a view on it otherwise the thread would not have kept going so long. But sadly the OP has just been taking the piss all along.

I had my doubts when his first post on the forum was - to paraphrase - "what do I have to do to get banned around here?".

[9V]

[glenn303]

Everyone takes different things when listening to music. My mate who is a drummer, focuses on the beat. Another friend who djs always concentrates on the overall structure and transitions. Other people listen mainly to lyrics. I tend to think most about how individual elements fit together. But I don't think any of these is more valid than another.

here in italy "musician" stands for "composer", not for "performer" or "listener"

In my own opinion a composer writes music but doesn't necessarily have to play an instrument, a musician plays an instrument but doesnt necessarily have to compose the music, a performer can be both or neither. Ive never heard of anyone calling a listener a musician.
On a side note why do you keep saying "here in Italy" as if everyone in Italy thinks the same way as you?

[9V]

On a side note why do you keep saying "here in Italy" as if everyone in Italy thinks the same way as you?

Because I don't speak english well, it is not my native tongue, but unfortunatelly nowadays it seems to be an international language (because of the empire issue, i guess... like latin 2000 years ago). Native english speakers don't realize the difficulties to communicate for a non-english speaker, because they don't have to use english as an international tongue. They write as they speak, often with idioms or "urban tongue" which we (foreign people) don't understand. I'd prefer a real international language, like esperanto e.g., but alas... So i think maybe you don't understand these very simple concepts because of the language gap, and not because of your (understandable) emotive reactions... when i hit the nerve. "Musician" here in Italy means "a composer", otherwise is called "concertista" ("performer"), "cantante" (singer) or "dj" (home music maker or dj playing with loops, samples, audio, remixes etc.). When an italian says "un musicista", he means "a composer".

[glenn303]

On a side note why do you keep saying "here in Italy" as if everyone in Italy thinks the same way as you?

Because I don't speak english well, it is not my native tongue, but unfortunatelly nowadays it seems to be an international language (because of the empire issue, i guess... like latin 2000 years ago). Native english speakers don't realize the difficulties to communicate for a non-english speaker, because they don't have to use english as an international tongue. They write as they speak, often with idioms or "urban tongue" which we (foreign people) don't understand. I'd prefer a real international language, like esperanto e.g., but alas... So i think maybe you don't understand these very simple concepts because of the language gap, and not because of your (understandable) emotive reactions... when i hit the nerve. "Musician" here in Italy means "a composer", otherwise is called "concertista" ("performer"), "cantante" (singer) or "dj" (home music maker or dj playing with loops, samples, audio, remixes etc.). When an italian says "un musicista", he means "a composer".

Fair enough, though i find it a bit Hilarious for you to say "I'd prefer a real international language, like esperanto". I had no idea that English was a fake language.
I understand concepts quite well regardless of any language barrier. This whole discussion is nothing more than how the definition of music differs from other cultures. You have your own thoughts on what music is to you and thats okay because it is your opinion and works for you.

My opinion is that music is an art form and that there are no rules when it comes to art. To me the written part of music (i.e notation, tab, midi, audio,) is the formula. The process of writing the music (on paper or in a sequencer, tape, etc.) is the creation of the music. And Playing the outcome of your creation live or recorded is the music. Music is sound and all of the above that i mentioned but music effects the brain in a unique way as opposed to other sounds.

[andydes]

even I am bored of this now and nobody even liked my cathedral/Berlusconi/John Prescott joke.

I did.

On a side note why do you keep saying "here in Italy" as if everyone in Italy thinks the same way as you?

Because I don't speak english well, it is not my native tongue, but unfortunatelly nowadays it seems to be an international language (because of the empire issue, i guess... like latin 2000 years ago). Native english speakers don't realize the difficulties to communicate for a non-english speaker, because they don't have to use english as an international tongue. They write as they speak, often with idioms or "urban tongue" which we (foreign people) don't understand.

I don't think your understanding of english is the problem, it's your reasoning. You keep talking about logic, but you're making "logicial" steps that don't work in language and don't work when talking about an art form.

"Musician" here in Italy means "a composer", otherwise is called "concertista" ("performer"), "cantante" (singer) or "dj" (home music maker or dj playing with loops, samples, audio, remixes etc.). When an italian says "un musicista", he means "a composer".

Just because the word musicista means composer doesn't mean that a performer or a DJ doesn't play music.

You've labelled everyone who works with audio and samples as DJ's, becausre they're not "composers" in the traditional sense of the word. But you have decided that working with midi is the same as writing score, meaning you can put yourself on the higher artistic level of "musician". Therefore you write music and they don't.

But what about people who don't use loops, and record their own instruments? They're just "performers" recording audio right? Not musicians like you.

So when Record was added to Reason, this was adding Audio to your pure music composing software. DJs and Performers would all come in asking for new features and ruin everything for the musicians, right?

So you complained in the Propellerhead forums the same way you have here, with your twisted logic that yours is the higher art form. Everyone who disagreed wasn't a musician, came from an inferior culture, etc. Many people were offended and after many pages they banned you right? So you took the same argument to KVR and were banned from there too.

And now you've done it here as well, but still not one single person agrees with your definition. All because of slight differences in the italian words for musicians and performers and some seriously fucked up reasoning.

My advice would be to stop worrying about it and just work the way you want to work. I'm a musicista myself, working mainly with midi, but I'm trying to do more with audio now. You can do some interesting things with audio that is very hard to do with midi. Despite being an inferior art form, maybe you should have a go at it. I promise no one will think less of you.

[sporkles]

Now: Esperanto v. English.