the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by nathannn » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:06 pm

[/quote]
8O Look, [/quote]


when people tell me to "look" i automatically stop paying attention. It always reminds me of obama. its such a demanding thing to say and its like the person saying it assumes they have some sort of authority over everyone to make them stop what they are doing just to "look" or "listen" to them.
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:10 pm

when people tell me to "look" i automatically stop paying attention. It always reminds me of obama. its such a demanding thing to say and its like the person saying it assumes they have some sort of authority over everyone to make them stop what they are doing just to "look" or "listen" to them.

My mistake translating my thought into english. In italian we say "guarda" ("look") meaning "well" :roll:

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by nathannn » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:13 pm

9V wrote:when people tell me to "look" i automatically stop paying attention. It always reminds me of obama. its such a demanding thing to say and its like the person saying it assumes they have some sort of authority over everyone to make them stop what they are doing just to "look" or "listen" to them.

My mistake translating my thought into english. In italian we say "guarda" ("look") meaning "well" :roll:
well, i dont even know what this thread is about anymore.
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:24 pm

it was about MIDI and AUDIO in a sequencer. For me they are two different things: MIDI can be called "music related" because of the code; AUDIO could be called "music related" only because of the sound (when reproducing recorded music). But, since audio material cannot be edited with music parameters (only sound parameters) i never use it in a sequencer. This means when i compose electronic music i use ONLY midi events. It's a "dogma" for me (as a composer), because audio material is sound, not music. Infact, if you have to change the tempo, tonality or key, you cannot do that with audio (sound), only with MIDI (music).

I noticed many american kids here say "audio is music", and i wonder why, since in my culture the term "music" is related to the code (notation and composition) not to the sound made with music (what the listeners hear). This, for me, is a "cultural gap", so i asked them why they call audio "music" and not just "sound", but they reacted in a strange angry way, telling me i am a racist and i am mocking american population (?!!!!), and started saying i am an italian troll, "go to eat pasta", insulting me etc. So now we are talking about clichè about foreign people and typical stereotypes in america movies. But for now it is a very civil conversation, apart those trolls and flamers.

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by drewbixcube » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:09 pm

9V wrote:...so i asked them why they call audio "music" and not just "sound", but they reacted in a strange angry way, telling me i am a racist and i am mocking american population (?!!!!), and started saying i am an italian troll, "go to eat pasta", insulting me etc. So now we are talking about clichè about foreign people and typical stereotypes in america movies. But for now it is a very civil conversation, apart those trolls and flamers.
That's how I remember it too... :roll:

No one has offered their age, yet you call them "kids". This is very condescending, and has been your general demeanor throughout the topic.
You assume those who disagree with you are American, when in fact a good portion of evidence against your case has come from members in Australia, the Netherlands, etc...

This "ethical dogma" of yours seems to be a rationale for you to call yourself a musician when you've admitted to triggering pre-made MIDI files during a live performance. Where's the musicianship in that?

But hey, you have your beliefs, and I have mine. To me, music is sound, created with whichever medium is called for to create it. MIDI has it's limitations, as do other forms of expression. A computer, whether it be used in conjunction with a DAW or other type of sequencer, becomes the musician/performer when it is reading files in real time. Whether you tell it to translate A440 from MIDI, or tell it to play a piano sample of A440 is completely irrelevant. To the computer, it is all 1's and 0's. The output, the sound, that's what I really care about, and that's what I consider music.

There's no need to categorize each and every aspect of the process. To say it is music during the creation process, but becomes sound when it is played back. To say it is music to the audience, but sound to the musician. These differentiations are entirely unnecessary. Music only needs one classification, though it can take many forms.

No one is confused about your concept. We're just confused why you need to have it. So much so that, as stringtapper pointed out, over the course of this discussion you have added stipulation after stipulation to your argument, and repeatedly discounted his references as "going too far."

I think the topic of topics has now become: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what can be considered music in a computer while adhering only to western tonal parameters and riding a bus in Italy")

No wonder we're confused.

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:26 pm

If you tell me how to warp an audio event from major key to minor key in real time, or to change the tempo, beat and tonality, i can tell you: "ok, audio can be considered music". But I doubt it is possibile with audio material (i am not talking about "time stretching" and "pitching", of course: those are sound parameters, not music parameters. I am talking about: "please, the singer has a soprano range: change the tonality of the song from E to C" etc.).

Regarding the word "kid", does it not mean "guy"?... Where is the offence here?! 8O About the rest ("americans" here) I just noticed the harshest insults were from people like loopzetazebra, stringtapper and another one from virginia. Rote Fahne, which is dutch, was trolling and tried to flame the thread with "like in audio" posts, but i guess i was warned by mods for that.
Last edited by 9V on Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:32 pm

scutheotaku wrote:
9V wrote: Regarding the word "kid", does it not mean "guy"?... Where is the offence here?! 8O
No, kid means "child".
I thought it was a word to say "boy" or "friend", not child. My intention, when I wrote "american kids here" was meant to read: "american friends here". If someone feel instulted, I apologize for the inconvenience.

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by crofter » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:44 am

scutheotaku wrote:
Music is the art of sound.

The art of composing music usually involves arranging various elements to create music, with this arrangement either happening through notation, orally, or through the direct manipulation of an electronic signal (which is usually performed by manipulating a visual representation of that signal).

Sound is an oscillation of pressure whose frequency is both high and low enough to be heard by the average human.

Audio is an electrical representation of sound.

The elements that make up music can written down in such a way to be interpreted by a "player," whether that player be manual (e.g. a keyboard player, an orchestra, a guitar player, etc...) or automatic (e.g. a sequencer).

Those elements can be represented in a number of ways.

The elements can be represented by a score (whether that be by the standard notation system, a piano roll, tablature, or something else entirely) so as to be interpreted and/or performed by a manual player.

Those elements can be represented by some sort of electronic or manual communication system (like MIDI, DCB, OSC, etc...) to be interpreted and/or performed by an automatic player.

Assuming a method of sound creation (a guitar, a piano, a synth, a drum machine, etc...) is available, then the "output" of the player (whether manual or automatic) should then create sound.

When this sound is created or reproduced electronically, it is represented as audio.

So, MIDI is a way to communicate the desired musical elements, audio is the end-product of those musical elements coming together with a player and a sound module of some sort. Sound is created when the audio (usually converted to analog at this point) is outputted from speakers and air pressure fluctuates. In the end, MIDI and audio are BOTH representations of music.
That's the way I see it, 9v is in a minority of one in this regard, I suggest he go and spend the next twenty years studying English so we wouldn't have the language problems highlighted in this thread.
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by MacGuffin » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:42 pm

is the language thing real, or did Dum suddenly stop being Irish and became Italian? :lol:

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:10 pm

crofter wrote: That's the way I see it, 9v is in a minority of one in this regard, I suggest he go and spend the next twenty years studying English so we wouldn't have the language problems highlighted in this thread.
Of course i am, infact i see all these young "musicians" mixing together prefab loops and talking about "music". They say: "here is my music", but for me it is a "remix", not music. Garageband game, so to speak... :roll:

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by crofter » Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:38 pm

9V wrote:
crofter wrote: That's the way I see it, 9v is in a minority of one in this regard, I suggest he go and spend the next twenty years studying English so we wouldn't have the language problems highlighted in this thread.
Of course i am, infact i see all these young "musicians" mixing together prefab loops and talking about "music". They say: "here is my music", but for me it is a "remix", not music. Garageband game, so to speak... :roll:
So you've said now shut the fuck up.
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:58 pm

that's my dogma, not a law. You can always keep on mixing your prefab loops together and call them "my music". What's wrong with that. No one will judge you. I simply call that "remix", not "music". "mix" is when you mix sounds (loops, samples, records: in a sequencer AUDIO tracks), "music" is when you play with intervals following harmonic rules (in a sequencer: MIDI tracks. On stage: from your mind to the action).

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by crofter » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:01 pm

Don't know about dogma but you're like a randy dog that won't let go of your leg.
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:42 pm

what should i say, sorry? it is your opinion about "music" (you call it "the art of sound"). But my topic was about "music" in a sequencer, that is to say "when performed by an electronic device". Infact for me "sound" (audio material) played in real time (by human action) is music. When recorded it becomes sound (because of the lack of human action). On the contrary, Recorded MIDI remains music, even if played by a machine (because of the CODE). That is the difference, and the "dogma". But, again, it is something important for the electronic composer/performer, as an ethical "direction". For the listener it is not important (the listener hears "music" either when played by MIDI or launched as an audio playback). So: for me "sounds" can be considered "music" only when played in real time through human action (loop feedback, sample manipulation, scratches, hitting concrete material, ableton live, maschine, etc.). If "played" as a playback base (cd, dat, audio tracks etc.) are sound, not music (there is no human action and there is no way to edit sound with musical parameters). Only MIDI playback is still music, in electronic music (the only genre using sequencers "live").

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:18 pm

scutheotaku wrote: It comes down to this - you define music as the score or the direct output of manual playing, and nothing else. Everyone else sees audio as just another representation of music.
Well, not in my country, actually. Here "audio" is not a representation of music, it is a representation of sound. And sound is not music, but a consequence of it. Music is before sound (in the composer/performer's mind). So, in a sequencer: MIDI represents "music events". AUDIO represent sound waveforms (not music).

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