the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

[9V]

that is what i said to stringtapper. He believes in all those weird theories about "timbre"... But i asked why loopstationzebra laughed at my "you have two different compositions".

[lord toranaga]

that is what i said to stringtapper. He believes in all those weird theories about "timbre"... But i asked why loopstationzebra laughed at my "you have two different compositions".

you also are guilty of believing your own BS also.


it all just BS


all to be doubted, even you 9v.


none among us know the truth

[9V]

the fact one says "uhm, i am not convinced" does not mean "you believe in your own BS". It simply means: "your argumentations are not strong enough to make me change my mind". Here, for instance, no-one has been able to give clear answers to my questions. One, above all: "why 99,9% of worldwide composed music is tonal?". Another one: "why, if audio is music, it cannot be thought, read, written and encoded like music?" etc. I gave my answers, and i think they are logical enough. The others just follow the ugly tendency to move with the crowd, writing bad things against me or simply flaming the thread rather than give logical answers.

[lord toranaga]

Cool Story

[9V]

I know it is (a cool story). For instance, can you answer those questions?...

[lord toranaga]

no I cannot.



anyone who says they can. is not to be trusted.

[trevox]

no, OSC (not "audio"). As an acronym of "open sound control" (via TCP/IP) not as "oscillator"...

No, Max can control audio signals with other audio signals making it possible to sequence music using audio only, no MIDI and no OSC.

as i wrote before, for me that is not music, but sound. You call those max experiments and the other 0,001% "music". For me music is tonal music, not "timbre" modifications. Again, your mistake is that you believe "timbre" is a musical parameter. It isn't (infact you cannot even "think" timbre, you can only "hear" and/or remember it... such as when you feel cold and then remember that particular cold day or winter...)

By the way: if "timbre" is a musical parameter, how is that there are no symbols for it? I mean, like in notation, math, grammar etc.? How can you explain "timbre modification" to a chinese musician, for instance? Using funny pics?...

Back again!

9V, I will explain. A basic sequencer works by playing several equally timed "ticks" (I believe there are 3840 per bar in a typical DAW) and divides these ticks to make what we call bars, beats, 8th notes, 16th notes etc. This creates a platform to arrange notes in a musical way by your definition in that you can place a note or notes at any of the 3,840 positions within each bar. I think unless you are completely deluded, you must agree with that.

I will assume for this argument that you agree with sampling - as in using sample banks of piano, drum sounds etc... (if you do not, then you disagree with all non-analog synthesis as you are in fact only playing looped sampled waveforms otherwise). So the scene is set - I want to trigger these (sampled) musical instruments without using midi.

For this example we will use a sawtooth wave. An oscillator is a repetitive waveform. Therefore, by telling it what frequency it is at, you can create - using audio - the very same midi ticks by creating a bang every time the audio from this oscillator reaches a certain DC value (using .5 and offsetting the phase is probably the best way of doing this). So within Max (which is a number cruncher, not a midi sequencer), you can tell max that every 240 times it receives a bang from the oscillator, output a bang which would be a 16th note. Every 960 times, output a bang which will equal a beat and another every 3840 times which will equal the start of a bar. Or anything in between - you get the message. You can even create your own transport that looks similar to the one in Live or Logic etc... So you are generating a sequencer USING AUDIO. You can use these "bangs" to trigger samples within Max/MSP. No midi is used. OSC is not used. Just audio and a number crunching application.

Do not even attempt to say you cannot. And don't say the same result is not achieved, because it is. The difference (and the real reason I would bother to go to any lengths to do this) is the resolution. With the potential of more "ticks", you can get way more accurate timing (referred to as sample accurate timing).

I would really like you to actual try to absorb this rather than coming back saying "no that is not music then". By that logic, the manner in which a computer creates midi ticks etc would also mean nothing written using midi is music as in effect, it is actually the same - just at a different resolution.

And using this method is NOT for experimental Max music. We went through this already - it is not some new genre of music - it is just a different way for people who have the need for sample accurate timing to write music.

[supamonsta]

tonight I successfully managed to avoid this thread, and then saved a few hours to test my new machinedrum+mophoKBtetra+ableton setup, and began for fun to try to make a wobble bass with one voice of the mopho, and after a few tests I then threw some beats with the MD. worked a bit to get the MD's kick triggering a siedchain compressor in live on the bass track, but found a trick (a second MD track with a midi machine, whose sequence mirrors the kick track's). I had one audio track to receive the mopho's audio out live, one midi track to receive and send midi to the mopho, and record midi clips, another audio track to receive the MD's output. I used another audio track to receive the signal from the "mopho out track" and used dummy clips on it to autofilter the bassline with the sync lfo's param shaped in the corresponding envelope. this began to begin fuckin cool, and after 3 hours I have 4 minutes of brand new material (I didn't record anything since march)

where is the music?

it's in my .als file, my synth patches and MD kits, my MD sequences, but I also did a mp3 file. shit this isn't music anymore


anyway some of us do think audio CAN be music (and not "is" music), therefore I post a link to this musical recording in the "my music section" of this forum (also in my soundclound signature link)

cheers

[crofter]

the fact one says "uhm, i am not convinced" does not mean "you believe in your own BS". It simply means: "your argumentations are not strong enough to make me change my mind". Here, for instance, no-one has been able to give clear answers to my questions. One, above all: "why 99,9% of worldwide composed music is tonal?". Another one: "why, if audio is music, it cannot be thought, read, written and encoded like music?" etc. I gave my answers, and i think they are logical enough. The others just follow the ugly tendency to move with the crowd, writing bad things against me or simply flaming the thread rather than give logical answers.

These are YOUR definitions of music, no one agrees with you, why should we try to convince you that you are wrong, from the off I've treated this thread with the contempt it deserves, pseudo-philosophical bullshit, sixth form stuff, and at the end of the day it doesn't matter a shit, now about those tits,pert little jobbies with turned up nipples or wrinkly old sag bags ? this is the topic of topics pal.

[H20nly]

agreed. the tits are way more important.

you say po ta toe. the rest of us say po ta toe.

you're holding up progress.

[Machinesworking]

Dumbest thread ever, couldn't be assed to read it, and I'll be dammed if I'm going to join in on an argument that's been DEAD for almost 100 years.
Classical music long ago accepted ATONAL NOISE, recordings, sound FX and other non tonal AUDIO as music, realized they had to eschew normal tabulator for it and MOVED ON.
Since then we've had noise musicians, in fact whole genres of music dedicated to noise in western culture for at least 50 YEARS!
It doesn't matter if third world countries don't have this, every first world country has it's noise music subculture, and has forever. We have DJ's who play samples off of records.. Beyond the argument about MIDI VS Audio which in itself is redundant, this whole opening concept is shot to shit from the opening paragraph. I could go on but seriously....
/THREAD

[9V]

the fact one says "uhm, i am not convinced" does not mean "you believe in your own BS". It simply means: "your argumentations are not strong enough to make me change my mind". Here, for instance, no-one has been able to give clear answers to my questions. One, above all: "why 99,9% of worldwide composed music is tonal?". Another one: "why, if audio is music, it cannot be thought, read, written and encoded like music?" etc. I gave my answers, and i think they are logical enough. The others just follow the ugly tendency to move with the crowd, writing bad things against me or simply flaming the thread rather than give logical answers.

These are YOUR definitions of music, no one agrees with you, why should we try to convince you that you are wrong, from the off I've treated this thread with the contempt it deserves, pseudo-philosophical bullshit, sixth form stuff, and at the end of the day it doesn't matter a shit, now about those tits,pert little jobbies with turned up nipples or wrinkly old sag bags ? this is the topic of topics pal.

Well, no-one agreed with galileo when he said "it's the earth moving, not the sun", no-one agreed with darwin when he said "i am sorry, but those bible's tales are BS" etc. Now these are obvious things for everyone (apart some funny american religious fanatics). Usually the crowd is conservative, so i am not that surprised "the majority" is "against my theories" here (i write "here" because out there every musician knows the difference between a code and a phenomenon, that is to say the difference between music and sound...).

[9V]

Dumbest thread ever, couldn't be assed to read it, and I'll be dammed if I'm going to join in on an argument that's been DEAD for almost 100 years. Classical music long ago accepted ATONAL NOISE, recordings, sound FX and other non tonal AUDIO as music, realized they had to eschew normal tabulator for it and MOVED ON. Since then we've had noise musicians, in fact whole genres of music dedicated to noise in western culture for at least 50 YEARS!
It doesn't matter if third world countries don't have this, every first world country has it's noise music subculture, and has forever. We have DJ's who play samples off of records.. Beyond the argument about MIDI VS Audio which in itself is redundant, this whole opening concept is shot to shit from the opening paragraph. I could go on but seriously....

It's not redoundant at all, because the topic is about MIDI vs AUDIO in a sequencer. Regarding "noise music", it is music when played in real time (on stage), because of the actions of the performer ("mind to action"). Recorded it is just sound (in this case "noise"). You can call it "music" when you recognize some chords, rhythm, protomelody in that noise, but it is a human illusion, like when you watch the moon and discover it has a face, or when you hear you dogs barking and you percieve english words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXo3NFqkaRM

[9V]

tonight I [...] saved a few hours to test my new machinedrum+mophoKBtetra+ableton setup, and began for fun to try to make a wobble bass with one voice of the mopho, and after a few tests I then threw some beats with the MD. worked a bit to get the MD's kick triggering a siedchain compressor in live on the bass track, but found a trick (a second MD track with a midi machine, whose sequence mirrors the kick track's). I had one audio track to receive the mopho's audio out live, one midi track to receive and send midi to the mopho, and record midi clips, another audio track to receive the MD's output. I used another audio track to receive the signal from the "mopho out track" and used dummy clips on it to autofilter the bassline with the sync lfo's param shaped in the corresponding envelope. this began to begin fuckin cool, and after 3 hours I have 4 minutes of brand new material (I didn't record anything since march)

where is the music? it's in my .als file, my synth patches and MD kits, my MD sequences, but I also did a mp3 file. shit this isn't music anymore

"music"? Why calling "music" your geeky game? It is just like when you go out and buy a jigsaw, then you go home, spend some hours to complete it and say: "i am an artist, i completed it", or (worst than ever) "i am an avant-guard artist, because i thought i had completed it in the right way, but it wasn't... Hey, but look at the result! Something new! Original! Wow!". Sorry, then, but for me this is not music, it is a random "collage" of sounds, in every form (.als. mp3 etc.). But you can call it "music", if you like, and give it a "significance". After all there are people who give significance to the random disposition of coffee grounds... They call it "destiny", i call it "coffe grounds"...

My question is: what if this game is played "random" by a child? Is the result "music"? What is the difference between your "music" (...) and the other "compositions", made for instance by other children or by my shecat pushing her claws on the keyboard? I have an answer, of course. Have you got an answer?

[slatepipe]

crikey