the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

[9V]

Well, but the examples there are just a way to express the difference between audio and music. It is not about "do you like it?" or "hey, you are not a real musician, because you don't understand that music". It was just an attempt to define the concept of "music" in a less "naive" way. But they did not even understand my aim, and thought i was trolling and insulting the reason users...

[antarktika]

two revolutionary dates in modern music history: 1983 (MIDI); 1997 (VST). When Peter Neubäcker introduced the Direct Note Access, we thought it was the third revolution (making the impossible possible: transform audio into music). But it was kind of a hype, infact it does not work. Only with single poliphonic instruments (piano, guitar) and not always, actually. So, audio is STILL sound.

1998, Rewire!

man, the ability to connect any daw to any other daw IS AWESOME!!! and they even transmit midi data (which is not music)

[9V]

rewire is for audio, nothing revolutionary. It is just a virtual cable, like soundflower. A way to "bypass" one of the two mixers. You can do it with phisical cables.
The real revolutions in modern music are 2: midi (1983) and vst (1997)
The third could be the DNA by Peter Neubäcker: something impossible to do (transform audio into music, that is to say in a sequencer: audio tracks into midi tracks)

[crofter]

Ban him, he's bonkers.Go here,
http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/ubbth ... Cat=&C=2#2
these people are far more knowledgeable, we are obviously far too stupid to grasp your arguments

[gjm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

[LoopStationZebra]

Is it over yet?

[Koshdukai]

a pen is not music, but score sheet is music, because music is the language. You can EDIT music with the pen, or with an instrument (which are musical TOOLS). You cannot do that with audio signals. So midi is music, the score is music, the sound made with music (the so-called "music") is not music (unless played IN REAL TIME).

Nova aka 9V, I think your problem is not being a native english speaker.

In literature, "The Story" isn't the paper+words printed on a sheet of paper or a document file with it. The story is the idea waiting to be transmitted to others, no matter the medium.

In music, you can's call a sheet of paper with notes "The Music" nor the MIDI file. The music is the idea waiting to become into something people can listen to.

A blue-print of a house... isn't "The House" it represents. ...idea waiting to turn into a physical object.

A source-code file of an application, isn't "The Application". ...idea waiting to be complied and turned into executable code.

A a sheet of paper with a cake recipe doesn't make that sheet of paper "The Cake". ...idea waiting to be made into a physical (and hopefully eatable) object.

All of the above examples show that the representations of a work aren't really "The Work".

Being able to edit the plans of the work, doesn't prove that those plans are The Work.

So, if you want to call a MIDI file "music" you may as well call a house blue-print "a house" or a book "the story" , the source-code file "the application" or a recipe "the cake".

But... doing that, you can't possibly deny others to call the resulting translation of the notes on a sheet of paper or a MIDI file, "music", like you can't deny that others may want to call "a story" whatever manifestations of started out as a book but may end as a song, movie or game all done around and withing "The Story".

Same thing with calling "a house" the physical manifestation of that initial blue-print, or calling a cake the result of following the rules printed on the recipe.

Can you "edit" the cake? Not to the sugar, eggs and flour level, but there are some degree of editint youcan make Does that turn it into something other than a cake because you can only go deep in editing in the recipe ? Nope. It'll still be a cake until someone eats it.

Can you "edit" a house ? Yup, you kinda can ...just like you can edit audio (and the cake).

You won't be able to "edit" the sand and cement in it, but you can change it, just like you can with audio. You may not change every little aspect of an audio file, but you can do some edits.

Being able to edit more or less something doesn't make it more or less a manifestation of something... in this case, music.

So, if you want to call "music" to the plans of it (MIDI file/Sheet of paper) you can... but you can't stop others to also call "music" to the manifestation of those plans.

...also, notes are simply a collection of audio snippets played at a specific frequency, and... MIDI may really be just a draft (because it lacks the "audio context" it'll trigger, unlike MOD Trackers=Notes+Samples, btw), just a rough idea of what's going to end up as being the final representation of that... music.

Maybe in italian (you're italian right?) the word "music" is not the same as "a song" and that's the all issue right there, I'm guessing.

(sorry, had to say something here too )

[9V]

yes, in italy "music" is the language, the code, the "partitura" ("score") and musical instruments are tools to play the score. A cake is a real cake when you have the recipe: must be writable, readable, changeable, constant, "standard", otherwhise it is not a cake, it is a collage of ingredients. The final result is "the cake" but before the cake you must write the recipe,the instructions, the rules. The same is for music: if you cannot define it, it is not music, it is sound. You must create the music, then you can play it with the tools (instruments, voice). You american call "music" everything you can hear, and "food" everything you can eat LOL. You are a little bit "primitive" in matter of food and music, i guess... MIDI and music are related, that is why midi is still a musical language and midi tracks can be converted to score. AUDIO tracks are not music, are "sound". Only human brain perceive them as "music", but it isn't actually.

[Broccoli]

Yeah, I think that singling out a nationality and making discriminatory belittling comments about those people is the fastest way to get banned from yet another forum. Keep going, it took you what, 800+ posts in 2-3 weeks at Propellerhead to be kicked out, don't give up now.

[9V]

"broccoli"...

[crofter]

"broccoli"...

Isn't that the bloke who made the James Bond films?

[9V]

he's one of the fanboys who wanted me to be banned from PH forum. Now he's asking PH to ban another user, because of the same issues (complaining about no vst, no midi out). The situation there is like this: 50% unsatisfied users, try to express their opinions and after a while they will be banned "by popular demand". The other 50% fanboys, like this "broccoli". By the way the reason i was banned was because of my MIDI requests (vst support, above all): because PH cannot say clearly that reason crashes with vst support. Since vst is midi related, they cannot introduce midi-out, too. Midi-out and vst are related, fanboys there don't even realize it. They ask for "midi-out" but "no vst, please" LOL. It is OBVIOUS that you cannot have midi-out if you are a closed "no-vst" system. Reason is becoming an "easy audio" software for young music makers, and professional users "bye bye". Just a commercial choice, a marketing strategy, because professional users need midi features, not loops. And midi features in reason are a "no no" (see "rewire" or the ugly no-midi connected "balance").

[crofter]

he's one of the fanboys who wanted me to be banned from PH forum. Now he's asking PH to ban another user, because of the same issues (complaining about no vst, no midi out). The situation there is like this: 50% unsatisfied users, try to express their opinions and after a while they will be banned "by popular demand". The other 50% fanboys, like this "broccoli". By the way the reason i was banned was because of my MIDI requests (vst support, above all): because PH cannot say clearly that reason crashes with vst support. Since vst is midi related, they cannot introduce midi-out, too. Midi-out and vst are related, fanboys there don't even realize it. They ask for "midi-out" but "no vst, please" LOL. It is OBVIOUS that you cannot have midi-out if you are a closed "no-vst" system. Reason is becoming an "easy audio" software for young music makers, and professional users "bye bye". Just a commercial choice, a marketing strategy, because professional users need midi features, not loops. And midi features in reason are a "no no" (see "rewire" or the ugly no-midi connected "balance").

Look pal, if Reason doesn't suit your needs use something else as long as it's not Ableton Live or Cubase,I suggest Reaper, I never used Reason because it never had Audio recording but then I don't make music, just sound.

[9V]

Look pal, if Reason doesn't suit your needs use something else as long as it's not Ableton Live or Cubase,I suggest Reaper, I never used Reason because it never had Audio recording but then I don't make music, just sound.

No, I don't like reaper, and it crashes a lot. I've been using ableton live since 2004 and logic pro. I like ableton live, above all. It is the most "musical" DAW out there. Logic Pro is another great DAW, but a little bit "closed" because of apple policy. What I hate is "rewire": it has nothing to do with music. It is for audio. Reason was nice untill version 5. Now, despite all the promises, PH has discontinued Reason. They call "Reason 6" something of an hybrid product for teenagers, no midi, audio tracks (?!), a dongle... an "all in one packet" with a crappy audio controller ("the balance")... Marketing strategies... Money... Business... All this crap.

[docprosper]

To the OP: your logic is completely baked. Your definition of music as "logical, writable, editable and readable" would include recorded audio, which I can chop up, mangle, and replay as music to my heart's content. Full disclaimer - I'm from the US so may not be able to completely process your superior logic.

To everyone else: when did 3phase become literate?