the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Discuss anything related to audio or music production.
H20nly
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by H20nly » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:54 pm

rote fahne wrote:Okay, still one remark: even if it is not yet technically possible to distill all the notes from a polyphonic music file, or if it would be even impossible at all, that doesnt matter, ALL the information of a music piece IS contained in the audiofile.

So there is no essential difference between an audio file and a midifile in respect to representing music. An audio file contains even more information than a midi file in this respect, so your logic doesnt hold.
and to add to this...

what are audio and MIDI files... yes, that's right! computer code. so i retract my previous statements and say that binary is music!

now listen to this:

10001010001000100101011010011001010001010001000101000101000100010101000101000101000100010001000101010

ahhhh sweeeet music.
let's hear that again...

10001010001000100101011010011001010001010001000101000101000100010101000101000101000100010001000101010

H20nly
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by H20nly » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:55 pm

rote fahne wrote:
H20nly wrote:technically, none of that is music... including the MIDI pattern (which only tells the computer which of it's preloaded sounds to play). the sounds (in the air) vibrating (the air) in some form of harmony with one another are the music.

i mean hey, if we're going to get off into the etherial lets be all encompassing... and yes, i think the piano palyers tits do hold relevance.
Its ones and zeros on your hard disk, or whatever storage medium you use, and not even ones and zero's but something like absence or presence of magnetic fields.

Image
8) i see we were thinking the same thing at about the same time

rote fahne
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by rote fahne » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:55 pm

H20nly wrote:wow someone should have told Hendrix and Stevie Ray Vaughan this. someone still needs to call up BB King, Steve Vai, Joe Santriani, Eddie Van Halen and any other mofo who has ever been called a guitar great and tell them what complete and utter lies their lives have been based on.
Hendrix on the Dick Cavett Show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7d36Fo6iC0
Last edited by rote fahne on Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rote fahne
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by rote fahne » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:57 pm

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H20nly
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by H20nly » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:03 pm

rote fahne wrote:
H20nly wrote:wow someone should have told Hendrix and Stevie Ray Vaughan this. someone still needs to call up BB King, Steve Vai, Joe Santriani, Eddie Van Halen and any other mofo who has ever been called a guitar great and tell them what complete and utter lies their lives have been based on.
Hendrix on the Dick Cavett Show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7d36Fo6iC0
nice one. gotta love it when Hendrix uses his teeth. but he didn't know what he was doing right... i mean he didn't use MIDI to compose that song right? what a slacker that guy and his half music.

9V
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:23 pm

ok, your answers are emotive. Here is my answers:

(1) Are the children in the audience listening to music?
The children are listening to sounds. When they understand the MEANING of these sounds, they are listening to music. “Music” is when you understand it is music. See this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_3q3_VdVz8 Musicians understand this is music. To a child it might be a cat jumping on the piano, something meaningless.

(2) The sounds the children are hearing, is it all music, or only partly?
The sounds remain sounds, unless encoded into music: if the sounds are harmonically played it is “music” (“music” is the harmony, unless you play something “not harmonic”, see the link above: in this case you have to explain it).

(3) Which of the four sound generating things on stage are musicians? Instruments?
(a) The pianist is a musician. Her singing is a way to express the music.
(b) The VST player on laptop is playing music. The young woman triggering the e-drum is playing music, too.
(c) The tape recorder is playing AUDIO SOUNDS of something that WAS music when performed, but that is NO MORE music, in a musical perspective. Because MUSIC is the THEORY and the CODE, must be logical, writable, editable and readable (MIDI or SCORES). When music is expressed in REAL TIME (with instruments or the voice) it’s MUSIC. When music is RECORDED it is a “playback” of something that was MUSIC at that precise moment. The human brain encodes this sound as “music”, because it WAS music. Like an image in a mirror, so to speak. But the key element is TIME. Music, to be considered “music” must be played in real time. If it is not played in real time it is just the sound of music. Otherwise: it remains music on score sheet or in midi file: because music is a CODE, a LANGUAGE.

(4) Where is the music in this scenario? The “music” in this scenario is the SHARED CODE, of course: harmony, rhythm, time, counterpoint etc.

(5) Where in this scene does music stop being music? Music stops being music when the players stop playing the music. And the children clap their hands. The tape recorder can even continue to play, but it does not play “music”: it just reproduces SOUNDS that human mind codifies as “music” (but it is not music, in a musical perspective: that is why “audio tracks” are not “music” and that is why a cd is not "music" but a "recording" of music, from italian "ricordo", meaning "memory", "cord" = corda, in english "rope").

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by rote fahne » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:31 pm

H20nly wrote:
rote fahne wrote:
H20nly wrote:wow someone should have told Hendrix and Stevie Ray Vaughan this. someone still needs to call up BB King, Steve Vai, Joe Santriani, Eddie Van Halen and any other mofo who has ever been called a guitar great and tell them what complete and utter lies their lives have been based on.
Hendrix on the Dick Cavett Show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7d36Fo6iC0
nice one. gotta love it when Hendrix uses his teeth. but he didn't know what he was doing right... i mean he didn't use MIDI to compose that song right? what a slacker that guy and his half music.
I used to have a record with Hendrix and Lonnie Youngblood. I think he used LSD.

About the guy 9V, I dont know him. I tried to chat with him, cause he's from Italy and I speak Italian as well, but he seems to be very serious, incazzato nero they say.

I understood he got angry cause the reason program doesnt support VST, I would say, then why did he buy it. :?

I got a Reason 5 demo on my desktop, works only for twenty minutes, I must say it is a great program, I like it, it has a very nice GUI, and very flexible options, I didnt dig into it, but I think you can do great things with that program.

And yeh, it would be great if they had VST support as well, but for some reason they dont want.

:lol:

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:52 pm

but the topic of topics is not about the horrible propellerhead policy. It is about MIDI vs AUDIO. The Propellerheads banned me because i don't like the product anymore (no vst, no midi-out: they still cannot avoid reason crashing with vst support: after 10 years! That is why they can't introduce vst and midi out in reason, but at the same time they are claiming that is their "original" choice... LOL good lie for fanboys) and i don't consider rewire a replacement for vsts (it is for audio, not for midi). Besides, i never use rex files and samples. So no money, apart the program. Of course music industry "forgets" only midi is music: because nowadays the so-called "musicians" ($$$) are kind of collage makers, not real musicians. So it is better to "forget" the essentials of music. Because of the business, i guess.
Last edited by 9V on Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rote fahne
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by rote fahne » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:56 pm

Ah, Stockhausen, we got a point of reference.

Feldman, Berio, Ligeti, Kagel, been there.

There's a dutch pianist, Ralph van Raat, he's a young guy that plays contemporary serious music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJbROXEiwjY

Here is his site:

http://www.ralphvanraat.com/

I didnt know Pollini played stuff like Stockhausen, so thanks for sharing.

(that goddamned Brahms pianokwintet :lol: )

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by rote fahne » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:57 pm

9V wrote:but the topic of topics is not about the horrible propellerhead policy. It is about MIDI vs AUDIO. The Propellerheads banned me because i don't like the product anymore (no vst, no midi-out: they still cannot avoid reason crashing with vst support: after 10 years! That is why they can't introduce vst and midi out in reason, but at the same time they are claiming that is their "original" choice... LOL good lie for fanboys) and i don't consider rewire a replacement for vsts (it is for audio, not for midi). Besides, i never use rex files and samples. So no money, apart the program. Of course music industry "forgets" only midi is music: because nowadays the so-called "musicians" ($$$) are kind of collage makers, not real musicians. So it is better to "forget" the essentials of music. Because of the business, i guess.
But what kind of music you want to make?

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:01 am

when i posted that link of Pollini in the PH forum all the fanboys laughed and the most enthusiast one said "it is not music" and called me "troll", asking the PH staff to ban me (... they did, actually)

Another example of me "trolling" in the PH forum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoNjqtcz ... feedf_more

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by 9V » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:13 am

the story there ended like this: reason fans writing things like "music are my pants", "music is pop corn at cinema"... all nonsense... or "emotive" opinions like "music is my life", "music is the sound of universe" and so on. So I replied it was my intention to talk about music in a serious way with musicians and that IMO these definitions are nonsense and naive and not interesting at all. At this point the PH staff employee wrote i was a troll because:

You basically insulted everyone that has a definition that doesn't agree with yours with that post, completely disregarding any arguments or discussion on a matter which you say you're interested in. While the original discussion was "MIDI vs. audio" it quickly was introduced that you thought MIDI was music, audio was not - thus this discussion began and now you're dismissing people as "naive" or not musicians when they have a different definition of music than you. To me, THIS is childish behavior.

And they banned me :?

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by rote fahne » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:20 am

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Last edited by rote fahne on Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

antarktika
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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by antarktika » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:24 am

rote fahne wrote:
9V wrote:a guy on PH forum asked that, because i think only midi tracks are music in a sequencer.
Then why didnt you answer him there. :mrgreen:
because he went on for literally about 30 pages saying what he is saying here over and over again, until he got banned.

I'd avoid getting too involved in this conversation, it's just an endless feedback loop.
Last edited by antarktika on Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the topic of topics: MIDI vs AUDIO ("what is music"?)

Post by rote fahne » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:26 am

antarktika wrote:
rote fahne wrote:
9V wrote:a guy on PH forum asked that, because i think only midi tracks are music in a sequencer.
Then why didnt you answer him there. :mrgreen:
because he went on for literally about 30 pages saying what he is saying here over and over again, until he got banned
I didnt know. He got himself in his own created loop?

Then somebody must get him out of there.

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