my 9v thread is locked

Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production
9V
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Re: my 9v thread is locked

Post by 9V » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:15 pm

i simply respect the forum rules. the guys are just looking for a scapegoat... :roll: I hope the moderators understand and lock this thread.

stringtapper
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Re: my 9v thread is locked

Post by stringtapper » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:22 pm

9V wrote:i simply respect the forum rules. the guys are just looking for a scapegoat... :roll: I hope the moderators understand and lock this thread.
"Rules?" Anarchist?

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: my 9v thread is locked

Post by Angstrom » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:32 pm

Free speech

9V
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Re: my 9v thread is locked

Post by 9V » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:32 pm

you have a strange opinion about anarchist thought and culture, but i promised the moderators not to talk about politics, so i won't reply. By the way I am still waiting for your answer, about music ("why an audio recorded song cannot be warped from major to minor key") :roll:

stringtapper
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Re: my 9v thread is locked

Post by stringtapper » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:50 pm

9V wrote:you have a strange opinion about anarchist thought and culture, but i promised the moderators not to talk about politics, so i won't reply. By the way I am still waiting for your answer, about music ("why an audio recorded song cannot be warped from major to minor key") :roll:
And I'm still waiting for about four or five responses from you in the original "music vs. audio" thread, so you can keep waiting too.
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9V
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Re: my 9v thread is locked

Post by 9V » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:57 pm

it's just funny, because you affirm you are a teacher in music, but now you need responses from me about something you asked me and that I ignore (which were the questions?). At the same time you cannot answer that very simple question... :roll: By the way, if you need responses, just ask me i'll be pleased to answer! Actually, the only question i remember i did not answer was something about pasta and colander or something...

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Re: my 9v thread is locked

Post by stringtapper » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:12 pm

9V wrote:it's just funny, because you affirm you are a teacher in music, but now you need responses from me about something you asked me and that I ignore (which were the questions?). At the same time you cannot answer that very simple question... :roll: By the way, if you need responses, just ask me i'll be pleased to answer! Actually, the only question i remember i did not answer was something about pasta and colander or something...
Always wanting someone else to do your homework. No I'm not finding the posts for you.

And it's not that I cannot answer, it's that I will not because I know the outcome:

Instead of having an actual discussion about the fact that there are different views and opinions on the definition of music (all dealt with in Nettl's New Grove article I suggested for you) you will continue to repeat the same thing you have said from the beginning. It's not my fault you won't educate yourself and it's not my responsibility to hand feed you the information that's out there on the topic.
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9V
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Re: my 9v thread is locked

Post by 9V » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:22 pm

Image

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theobserver/2 ... 8/society1

38 dialectical tricks: the last trick, the ultimate strategy, is: when you see that your opponent is winning, to 'become personal', to 'leave the subject altogether and turn your attack to his person by remarks of an offensive and spiteful character'.

I've read it 10-15 times now, and i can say i respect your opinion :roll:

stringtapper
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Re: my 9v thread is locked

Post by stringtapper » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:35 pm

stringtapper wrote:Instead of having an actual discussion about the fact that there are different views and opinions on the definition of music (all dealt with in Nettl's New Grove article I suggested for you) you will continue to repeat the same thing you have said from the beginning. It's not my fault you won't educate yourself and it's not my responsibility to hand feed you the information that's out there on the topic.
I think you'll notice here that I did NOT leave the subject matter. Nice try though.

Sorry you took what I said above personally. It is simply what I have observed of you and the way you "discuss" the topic (i.e. you don't discuss the topic, you merely repeat the same thing over instead of considering other ideas). Don't take it personally. If I were you I would go back through the original thread and find some of the sources I suggested. Take a few days/weeks/months and see if you don't learn something new.

For what it's worth, I used to think a lot like you do. But then I studied a lot more music that isn't structured by "the code," as you put it, and it changed my way of thinking about music from a technical standpoint.

Good luck.
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Re: my 9v thread is locked

Post by 9V » Sun Sep 04, 2011 11:47 pm

you are a teacher, and you understand very difficult, complex matters that are beyond me. My argument was much simpler, since 99'9% of music on planet earth is made with tonal rules ("the code"). That is the difference, and the reason why i can understand so clearly why in a sequencer midi is music and audio sound. For instance, the fact you cannot warp an audio song from major to minor key, or change its tempo is enough to understand what i mean when i say only midi in a sequencer is music. You bring it too much philosophically, being a teacher. I just take it technically, as a musician. But i've noticed the ugly tendency to call opponents "troll" or insult them. I never do that, never insulted anybody. That is why i gently ask the moderators to lock the thread: because it is bullying (that is to say: many people against one person, not about his opinions). For me it is ethically wrong.

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Re: my 9v thread is locked

Post by stringtapper » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:10 am

9V wrote:You bring it too much philosophically, being a teacher. I just take it technically, as a musician.
You think you are approaching the question from a purely technical standpoint, but the fact is that in questioning the definitions of terms you are inherently bringing conceptual and, yes philosophical, issues into the discussion. The very fact that the discussion calls for defining terms brings us out of the technical and into the conceptual.


And once again, your "99% of music is 'tonal'" argument: First of all you have a hard time defining what you mean by "tonal" as you have stated that this "tonal" music (your definition) existed in 1500. By all musicological accounts the commonly accepted definition of "tonal music" certainly does not fall within that time period. Second of all your argument doesn't really matter all that much if even you admit that there's at least 1% of music that isn't tonal (it's more than that I assure). Because (you say) 99% of music is "tonal" then that makes your definition of music correct? A specious argument, to be sure.

The most troubling problem with your argument lies in the fact that it is dependent on your own definitions of music in order to succeed. So you say that if one cannot warp audio from a major to a minor key that it then proves that "musical" parameters cannot be performed on the audio and so the audio is not music. BUT in order to agree with your argument one must already agree with your definition of what "musical parameters" are. So in order to get somewhere with your argument you are going to have to give some kind of support to why you think your definition of "musical parameters" should be adopted by others. So far the method you've chosen to support your definition of "musical parameters" is your "99% of music is 'tonal'" argument, which we have already seen in what I wrote above has some serious flaws.

So I would suggest not just taking some time to think about the core of the topic (expanding definitions of music) but also to refining your argument.
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Re: my 9v thread is locked

Post by 9V » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:18 am

it is very easy to answer: "tonal music"? when you play something on a scale and the harmony follows the rules of those ratio, chords and intervals. You cannot mistake, from chopin to black sabbath (99,9%), from folk music to electro house... from jazz to trip hop... from jingles to symphonies... when someone whistles random notes or "improvises" songs (even without knowing music theory)... practically everything.

Regarding the 0,01% of so-called "no tonal music", i have never heard anything about, apart modulation technique (or naive mistakes in harmonic building) Does it exist? Can you name me some? Mine's the benefit of doubt, not an assertion. Since I have never heard about it, i just trust the ones who tell me it exist and it is called "music", too.

That said, you could tell me: "well, things like drones: it is music". But, how can you call "music" something that people (and most of musicians) call "sound"?

Music, for me, is tonal music. The rest is sound. That is why i consider MIDI a musical tool, and AUDIO tracks only sound (not useful).

But I guess this is a good excuse to call the moderators and tell them: "he's a troll, he always repeat the same arguments over and over again"... :roll: (I just answer questions, actually...)
Last edited by 9V on Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

stringtapper
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Re: my 9v thread is locked

Post by stringtapper » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:46 am

The widely accepted definition of "tonal" music is that which uses a diatonic scale and has functional harmony. You start to see the style coalesce in the 17th century, although hints of tonal practice show up earlier. The harmonic function side of things began to become more sophisticated on through the 18th and early 19th centuries until harmony began to become more and more chromatic with composers like Schubert, Chopin, and Brahms. Then with composers like Wagner the idea of "functional" harmony began to erode, until in the early 20th century Debussy, Schoenberg and his pupils, and Stravinsky, etc. began to write music in what is generally accepted as "non-tonal." (Terms like "atonal" "post-tonal" and non-tonal" are generally interchangeable to describe this music.)

Modern pop music is mostly tonal, but is more akin to the works of the mid to late 19th century, where harmonic function began to unravel. Modern pop music often doesn't have a strong dominant-tonic relationship like in the music of the 18th and early 19th centuries, and cadential motion in pop songs can be achieved by many different types of progression.

So everything that came before about the 17th century is not generally considered "tonal" by most people who study music seriously. Most would consider it "modal" but that is even a gross generalization.

The idea that musical ideas and gestures could exist and be transmitted by musical parameters other than the basics of pitch, duration, and dynamic started with Schoenberg's idea of Klangfarbenmelodie, that is the idea of a "melody" that exists in the timbral interplay between instruments and voices. This idea was furthered by the Darmstadt school in the 1950s and was eventually realized with electronics becoming a part of the composer's palette of instruments. Timbre as a musically manipulatable parameter has been a given for many composers since this time.
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Re: my 9v thread is locked

Post by 9V » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:51 am

Debussy, Schoenberg and Stravinsky can be played on piano? Can their works be written on a score sheet? Can they be reproduced with MIDI? Whistled, sung? Yes, so this is music ("the code"). But what I just ask you is: which is the music that cannot be played with midi/notation parameters (only on audio tracks) and is however called "music"?! Never heard before. Unless you call "music" the drones, the sound of a storm, popcorn at the cinema etc. :roll: Those are only sounds, and that is what i mean when i say only midi tracks, in a sequencer, can still be called "music". Unless you consider "music" the sound or noises?!
Last edited by 9V on Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: my 9v thread is locked

Post by stringtapper » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:07 am

9V wrote:Debussy, Schoenberg and Stravinsky can be played on piano? Can their works be written on a score sheet? Can they be reproduced with MIDI? Yes, so this is music ("the code"). But what I just ask you is: which is the music that cannot be played with midi/notation parameters and is however called "music"?! Never heard before.
Seriously man, you always seem to sidestep the specifics of people's posts. Please READ and FOCUS if you want to have an intelligent discussion.

Yes, some works by Schoenberg can be played on a piano. Some can't—or at least can't capture the entire musical idea.* Example: 3rd movement of the Op. 16 Five Pieces for Orchestra titled "Farben." The piece displays Schoenberg concept of Klangfarbenmelodie and part of the musical idea of the piece lies in the interplay of timbre among the instruments, something that cannot be achieved merely with the parameters of pitch, duration, and dynamic—what you call "the code."

I already gave you examples before of music that is not "latticed-based" as Trevor Wishart puts it. You called Chowning's Stria tonal, but it in no way is tonal by the accepted definition of "tonal music."

Stockhausen's Studie II is another example I gave you before. Gottfried Michael König's Essay is another from the same period (same studio even). Ligeti's Artikulation (same studio again).

And again, I shouldn't have to do your homework for you.

* Webern arranged the Op. 16 for piano, but the 3rd movement loses the interplay of timbre and consequently the core idea of the movement (it's titled "Farben" after all).
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