fake/boring live set?

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Vresky
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fake/boring live set?

Post by Vresky » Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:32 pm

who enjoy to go to a electronic festival and see most artists using live in the same way : play song in one trak or few clip, turn a filter and play 3 notes overdub?

i when i say that everybody answer" thats ableton man ! thats great, you just dont understand "

i understand that live + max is a pretty modular environment and you could use it like you want. not like you apc tel you to do.

loop and sequence or fx is not the only way to play music live.
i see a lot of dj or musician that move unafected controler ( or eq on unsed traks ) just to look like they do somthing.
i cant tel you names cause its to much ! so many have everything ready in the arrangement view and play with beatrepeat or stuff like that.
its so common now that audience cant understand what happen, and artist know that other know they are fake... but as they are fake to they agree. the best part is when you play everything live, it looks so strange that i got a lot of "its fake" feedbak !!

last festival of our last tour a percussion + didjeridoo jam to close the festival was the best part of mi musical experience during the tour. was refreshing.

most electronic live set are just fake. im not ok about it. i would like to see more sofware like ableton live. and more user that would play for real

stop to play with music , play music.

stringtapper
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Re: fake/boring live set?

Post by stringtapper » Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:42 pm

A friend of mine and his wife have a group, she's a professnal clarinetist and he's a composer, and they perform with her on clarinet and m on computer. Honestly, watching it could be considered rather boring, a chick playing clarinet sometimes mildly flailing with the flourishes and gestures of the written music, and a guy sitting at a table occasionally tweaking knobs and keeping his eye on a Max patch. But the music coming out is anything but boring.

So I think a lot has to do with your expectations of what a musical performance should be, and more specifically what an electronic/computer music performance should be. Computer music in particular sort of represents a paradigm shift from the normal conceptions of musical performance because any many cases the performer is the computer itself. That doesn't necessarily make the musical idea any less relevant, but if you're locked into conventional notions of performance then it might make you uncomfortable.
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Ryanmf
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Re: fake/boring live set?

Post by Ryanmf » Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:44 pm

First of all, Herrmutt, you're the shit. Thanks for the awesome music, for the cool tools that let people like DZA make awesome music, for everything.

Second, I'm working really hard to get my playing technique as tight as possible in as many ways as possible to never have to be "press play guy." I'm also working on finding/assembling/making technology that will allow me to remove unnecessary equipment and screens from the stage. I hope never to appear to be checking my email, and that eventually the great god damn big table can go too, which I believe creates a disconnect with the audience, and is definitely part of why some performers think they can get away with the shit you're describing.

Third, I'll just leave this here:

Image
Last edited by Ryanmf on Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

stringtapper
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Re: fake/boring live set?

Post by stringtapper » Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:01 pm

As an instrumentalist I empathize with the argument against "pressing play", but I often get the sense that this "connection with the audience" is interpreted solely as visual cues that point to the level of "activity" that is going on. To me this disregards the purely sonic connection that is what essentially differentiates music from any other art. When I go to see a symphony orchestra I'm not usually concerned with having a connection with the viola section, or even the conductor for that matter. I realize I'm once again breaching the sanctity of this pop music temple by bringing in this high art jumbo jumbo as an example, but I think it's worth considering why pop music automatically has to have this certain kind of "connection" with the audience. I know that it's part and parcel of the particular musical arena, but can pop music audiences possibly accept other standards of performance? Just some ramblings.
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Ryanmf
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Re: fake/boring live set?

Post by Ryanmf » Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:38 pm

I see where you're coming from, and would generally agree that if the music's no good, you may be wasting your time trying to find the best way to "make a connection."

I do think it's important to note the accuracy of the point Herrmutt raises, people have grown accustomed to seeing electronic musicians do very little on a stage, and when they see something happening in real time it may be so unfamiliar that they believe it to be fake. In a way, making an effort to do more is just signaling (it's not "required," per se, any electronic musician can just press play if they're so inclined), both an attempt to get people's gears turning and a nod to the people who know what's up, which is definitely tangential to the music. Which is to say you can be great at that part and still write shitty songs.

But even in the symphonic context you raised, there are some conductors who flail their arms about and whip their head around and do other things superfluous to what's required for the purposes of keeping time, i.e. those actions may not be for the benefit of the players.

And on a personal note, I know it may make me a heathen, but I prefer James Brown to Beethoven, and that sort of attitude has a significant impact on how important I find these types of connections to be. I'm making dance music, I want the audience to dance, I want to dance with them, I don't want them to perceive me as "too cool" because I don't want them to act that way either, and I definitely don't want them to think I'm detached or half-assing it.

stringtapper
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Re: fake/boring live set?

Post by stringtapper » Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:01 pm

Well as anyone who's played in an orchestra can confirm, the conductor's role is often superfluous regardless of how flashy they are. Which was kind of the subtextual point of my example, that being that often even a symphony orchestra performance is little more than "pressing play." :),
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Vresky
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Re: fake/boring live set?

Post by Vresky » Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:16 am

As my post was kind of negative and "epidermic", you guys send a really interesting an positive feedback. Im surprised and i think about it.

by the way, when guys just press play without faking/pretending to do something else it s still 100/100 honest
I mean its ok when there is no connections between "performer/audiance/music" without mimicking theses possibles retractions
Real time / or "playabck" music is comparable to theater and cinema. Both and are respectable when there is no lies/sheet about what you give.
I remember a dudes that after tweaking pan, EQs ect on unused audio channels on a dj mixer few minutes later, turn another random knob that actualy do somting..... muting monitoring level !be careful : yes somtimes knobs works for real!

In the other hand i would send respect to all the dudes that work to increase they're own way to interpret the music. And same big up to the ones that share triks or build live oriented maxforlive devices for the community.

it wasn't legit to send my "negative reaction" without sending a god vibes to bruvas that roks... now its fixed :)

john gordon
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Re: fake/boring live set?

Post by john gordon » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:21 am

octatrack

Vresky
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Re: fake/boring live set?

Post by Vresky » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:46 pm

Yes i understand

At the same time it s POSSIBLE to do a real live set, and in so many different way.

Here s some of the problem we meet:

-Our usb midi devices disconnect all the time

-Songs need 60s to open

-I have to close and open ableton between each songs to prenvent recurent memory crash at .als opening ( 32 bit?)
its really heavy and need, 4,50 meters by one to put all the devices on stage. you cannot connect your stuff during the party setup has to stay in place from soundshek till performance.

-you have to use a desktop pc not a laptop ( audio latency )

-need practice

-not well paid regardless the work needed.


with all these problems i understand why most just do nothing! they are right !

supamonsta
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Re: fake/boring live set?

Post by supamonsta » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:29 pm

-Our usb midi devices disconnect all the time
there is a problem here. it shall not. reinstall, clean your computer, or get a mac. (hot plug allowed)
-Songs need 60s to open
make a huge set with all your songs in it
-I have to close and open ableton between each songs to prenvent recurent memory crash at .als opening ( 32 bit?)
same answer as above, or get a mac
-you have to use a desktop pc not a laptop ( audio latency )
wrong, get a decent soundcard for your laptop
-need practice
right!!! a lot!!! as any other instrument you could want to play
-not well paid regardless the work needed.
indeed, but once you're setup, you can chain multiple gigs without any more setupping


I'm back in this interesting thread as soon as I've finished my job day,

cheers

Slightlydelic
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Re: fake/boring live set?

Post by Slightlydelic » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:29 pm

i find all that over emphasised controlerist wankery totaly cringe worthy.

dark room, flashing lights, big speakers and music that bangs all night long. anything else is wasted on me.

Muzik 4 Machines
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Re: fake/boring live set?

Post by Muzik 4 Machines » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:17 pm

Here s some of the problem we meet:

-Our usb midi devices disconnect all the time


never ever happened to me in almost 10 years

-Songs need 60s to open

then do a live set with all your songs in it

-I have to close and open ableton between each songs to prenvent recurent memory crash at .als opening ( 32 bit?)

never had this problem on my mac

its really heavy and need, 4,50 meters by one to put all the devices on stage. you cannot connect your stuff during the party setup has to stay in place from soundshek till performance.

use roadcases and snakes, i can assemble/dis-assemble my setup in 20 minutes in the dark


-you have to use a desktop pc not a laptop ( audio latency )

never had an issue using my old macbook pro live


-need practice

making live music needs practice, i dont see your point here


-not well paid regardless the work needed.

if you do it for the money, you are in it for the wrong reason

supamonsta
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Re: fake/boring live set?

Post by supamonsta » Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:36 am

to the debate about the awaited interaction or connection between the artist and the crowd,

I think that above all is the pleasure enjoyed by the artist when playing his music,

and I could NEVER press play and faking to be doing something special.

I need session grid, reverbs, delays, fx sends, mutes and faders, and lots of pots to control all that stuff live, when I want to, if I want to, and be able to play each song, every time, differently.

no matter the crowd knows or not that I'd be running a fuckin serious live set or simply just hardly knows about who's djing right now, cause I just need to enjoy myself when playing, and that's absolutely not doable with a pre-programmed dj-style live set.


about fake live sets, there was a site something like "fake act" on the web but I can't find it anymore, lots of trance live shows videos, btw lol


cheers

Ryanmf
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Re: fake/boring live set?

Post by Ryanmf » Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:03 am

I think Duck Sauce are a great example of two guys making mass consumption dance music without resorting to faking it. I mean, they have hits, and you guys are right, the average listener doesn't like it when you fuck with their favorite hit.

But they've got great chemistry, they sort of take turns manning the gear and working the crowd, they have a good balance of playing songs out and using effects to make variations, even if all their live "edits" really amount to is instant gratification type stuff, or filter sweeps that last way. too. long. for my tastes, it still really looks like they're doing something up there.

(And not that I think he would, but if A-Trak ever gets caught performing bullshit, unplugged MIDI controller pantomime, they had better revoke those damn DMC trophies.)

Vresky
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Re: fake/boring live set?

Post by Vresky » Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:06 pm

-Our usb midi devices disconnect all the time
never ever happened to me in almost 10 years

how much usb devices do you use in live? it works cause you are on mac !

-Songs need 60s to open
then do a live set with all your songs in it

cant merge two traks, its to huge. i can but i cant open it after its saved.
each songs are played in a very different way, so it could be merged it the same session. before we turn 100/100 live trigering, we had a session with all our loops and generative sequencer in one set. now we cant, its to complex.

-I have to close and open ableton between each songs to prenvent recurent memory crash at .als opening ( 32 bit?)
never had this problem on my mac

thats cool, one more point for mac!

its really heavy and need, 4,50 meters by one to put all the devices on stage. you cannot connect your stuff during the party setup has to stay in place from soundshek till performance.
use roadcases and snakes, i can assemble/dis-assemble my setup in 20 minutes in the dark

we already have some roadcases. but it could be interesting.

-you have to use a desktop pc not a laptop ( audio latency )
whats is your current audio out latency? whats is your soudcard?

never had an issue using my old macbook pro live

i think our setup is very cpu heavy, is actualy between 12 and 17 controler that talk to max devices that could interact eachothers. we try to keep cpu low as possible but real-time retroactive system is cpu heavy. maybe few of our max devices could be cleaned to preserve cpu.

-need practice

making live music needs practice, i dont see your point here

the point is when you just pass by to fake a set, you have enough time to have a day job.

-not well paid regardless the work needed.

if you do it for the money, you are in it for the wrong reason

i dont do that for money but i do music all the days since last 16 years and live set and live workshops are my only income since 5 years. as i allredy dream to live whitout money i cant do it rigth now. why somone could travel all the world to push the spacebar and turn a filter if its not for money? why some like you or us work evryday on the live set ? i dont know why! but it couldn't be for money :) anyway we still need to eat. but you rigth, this is not the point here

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