Look At all those people coming together in Wisconsin!!!!!!!

[scott nathaniel]

Your ego is as big as Texas. Speaking of nature, I just watched about 100 ants devour a live cricket, here in the desert. Sure they acted as a connected unit, but the cricket was alone. You're a city dweller; come to the desert and you might make claims about understanding nature a bit better. By the way, since we're connected, could you ride your hummer bike over here and help me with my grandmother who has dementia. It gets a bit overwhelming and since we're connected and all, I thought you could lend a hand. No? I thought as much. Your coveted DMV just revoked my grandfather's license! Perhaps you could ride over here and take him to the VA hospital? No! Oh well! We must be connected in some ss cosmic reality. Well thanks for all of your sincere understanding about us being connected, or was that just euphemistic babble to further your score---with yourself.

[starving student]

those ants devouring that cricket are part of a system and yes that cricket is apart of the same system
my grandmother has dementia as well, and like your grandfather , my fathers license was revoked 5 months ago.
I hope your grandfathers va hospital is in better condition than my fathers when you get there.
I also hope the trials and tribulations you're going through don't completely consume you, I'm no stranger to struggles.
but on this 'scoring points with ones self' diatribe your on I want you to know that it's an oxymoron, but if it makes you feel better to continue to attack me then have at it……i can take it.

inbetween the attacks though lets talk about wisconsin. (thumbs up)

[scott nathaniel]

but on this 'scoring points with ones self' diatribe your on I want you to know that it's an oxymoron, but if it makes you feel better to continue to attack me then have at it……i can take it.

You don't really mean to say it's an oxymoron, because that would imply that it's a contradiction of speech, which it is not. You are trying to score points for your own ego. What you mean to say is that you believe I'm being hypocritical because you believe I am trying to score points for myself, as well. Perhaps you are right.

[LoopStationZebra]

ffs.

Do any of you actually WORK with any US government entities in any sort of serious capacity? As a contractor or subcontractor? I'm not talking about how you once fixed a toilet in your local Post Office. I'm talking being front-and-center and involved with large segments on a daily basis. Any of you?

Because if you actually had then you'd know the fucking EPIC amount of ridiculous waste and redundancy that goes on.. omfg. Take any given department in nearly any government office, and I guaran-damn-tee you that there are at least 2x the number of staff to do essentially the same kind task that's done in any private sector office. The pace at which shit gets done is fucking GLACIER. lol. omfg. 99% of private sector businesses large and small would simply go out of business if modelled the same way. That's a problem. Saying it's not a problem is retarded in the extreme.

Everyone gets focused on the HOT BUTTON issues, and you make up your minds based on both your political leanings and what your fav media outlet tells you:

Fox News = Unions are Bad. Government is Bad. Teachers are Bad. etc.
MSNBC = Unions are Awesome. Government is the Answer. Every Public Employee Should Be Valued. etc.

Totally and utterly red herring issues to the real issue of how utterly fucking mismanaged, ill-planned, and ill-conceived many government sector divisions actually are.. In this respect anyway the Tea Party / Republicans are absolutely Spot On. If you don't think there's a massive amount of fucking waste and redundancy then you're absolutely fucking clueless and clearly have no dealings whatsoever with the US government outside of getting a new drivers license or mailing a letter.

And I'm not talking about the bullshit obvious targets (teachers on the Fox News side of things, military on the MSNBC side of things). Oh no. No no no. I'm talking about those untold thousands upon thousands of completely forgotten desk jobs in which people are simply pushing red tape and paper from one department to the next. And getting paid upwards of $70,000 a year plus benefits to do so... BTW, that salary scale that's been bandied about in this thread? The GSA and other gov entities are also paid on a REGIONAL scale. A position that pays $70k a year in bumfuck Iowa will pay nearly double that in NYC.

starving comes at this (like most people, actually) on a purely emotional level. I get that, but it's pointless and ultimately won't solve shit. The problem is that everything is always blown up to a LIFE OR DEATH scale when dealing with any sort of goverment reform. meh. Reforming collective bargaining gets down to "IT WILL SAVE OUR STATE!" or "THE WORKERS WILL DIE FROM STARVATION".

The fact is, none of that deals with the real problem: which is widespread waste and redundancy and an EVER INCREASING SET OF FUCKING REGULATIONS FOR STUPID SHIT. Example? The permitting process for even a small scale construction project. omfg. 15 years ago getting a permit for an 80,000sqft small building project in pretty much any mid-size city was a *relatively* painless process. Now? omfg. It's so fucking complicated that construction companies and developers have had to hire TEAMS of people to deal with permitting. For instance, it's now a requirement both on the State and Federal level that porta-potties have to be provided at all construction sites. Er, okay. But the average form that must be filled out that says you'll comply? 5 pages. omfg. lol. It also requires at least 1 follow up form after they've been installed and....wait for it....there's even a special inspection that needs to happen after the fact. lol. Which, of course, incurs a fee.

omfg. /thread.

If waste and redundancy and red tape wasn't so fucking epidemic, maybe people wouldn't be bitching so much about collective bargaining rights.

Just sayin.

[starving student]

red tape doesn't kill people, people kill people
if you don't like government red tape you must be thoroughly vexed by the people who want the whole government to grind to a halt, must be super peeved at what it takes to get a bill voted on forget getting passed but just on the floor so that shitmocracy can take place, and I'm sure we share a balls deep lack of admiration for how the filibuster is being used as we speak.
Even in the midst of this time of economic disaster and the great 'fall of the american empire' as some like to act the you-know-whos are still making record profits, not just record profits but in fact the most they've ever made ever! now how is that even possible under the almighty evil oblackma administration? allot of politicians lie but senator no, congressman no, governor no and speaker so and so wouldn't last a day in the private sector with a track record of coming to work bright and early every freakin morning to just say no all day, go to lunch come back and say no for the rest of the day. of course there are moments of fear mongering, war mongering and the occassional reach around but if we really don't like red tape, waste, and redundancy then we need to start with the union at the top, because all of that red tape and confusion isn't there by chance it's there to keep people distracted, dividable, and conquerable.

[Machinesworking]

If waste and redundancy and red tape wasn't so fucking epidemic, maybe people wouldn't be bitching so much about collective bargaining rights.

As usual with this stuff I agree and disagree. Yes I've worked on many government construction sites. The bad is that it's carefully thought out, safety is first in every case, and the rules are followed. The good is that it's carefully thought out, safety is first in every case, and the rules are followed. As is usual with any regulation or rule I didn't agree with all of the rules, but the simple fact is working in construction over the years in 99% of the cases where someone got hurt they were breaking the rules: some guy can't walk stilts and gets on them, uses a ladder that has no feat on a concrete floor etc. Ever been on a construction site where they don't have the right amount of porta-potties? Your example I'm certain developed out of some contractors greed, not surprising. Yes the rules are ridiculous at times, Bill and Melinda Gates Project last year was silly, you had to wear helmets and safety vests inside the building, because they didn't want a single person walking outside without them on for instance. That was definitely due to insurance regulations though, not the union or the government. I'm sure there were some of the dumber Tea Party types blaming the government though.

This is where I completely agree though, there is money being siphoned off somehow left and right in our government. Health care is the best example, France gives 100% coverage to its citizenry, we only cover the extremely poor and the people on Social Security. We pay twice as much to cover less than 25% of our population than France pays. We are doing something wrong there. There are a dozen other first world nations with 100% coverage that pay less than we do in taxes to cover everyone, France just happens to be half, and many people in the USA consider them a "socialism" etc. Well then, how come a supposed bloated government, and one I would find hard to believe is more streamlined than ours is getting something done while we argue about it and pay more for what we have?
A few wild guesses:
-France has more aggressively hunted down people in their government that are laundering money into a project that doesn't exist, and paying ten times the amount for an item to a cousins business who has the exclusive contract etc.

-France has regulated the salary levels of the health care industry to a degree. There aren't the shear amount of millionaire doctors and CEO's there that there are here.

- Same applies to the maintenance industries for health care, construction, janitorial etc.

My guess is it's a matter of the first one, plus maybe a insurance industry that doesn't own the government? Dunno? One thing though, we're doing something wrong, and it's not a matter of whether an 80k sqr. ft. building site has to comply to regulations on porta potties. I can tell you one thing though, not a single person I know in the union is living an even middle class existence. That includes the foremen and people who have been in the industry for 20+ years, lower middle class at best. So I will never understand or be sympathetic towards people when they point out that someone is making a living off the decent but not amazing salaries offered by the government.
TL;DR it's not the salaries of workers in the union or government that's a problem, it's the inflated salaries further up the line, and the IMO obvious corruption (laundering, inflated contracts etc.) that's plagued our system forever.

[starving student]

the haliburton ethos

[mech2161]

This is a copy and paste.

If it works for him it should work for me:

President Obama ordered the cabinet to cut $100,000,000.00 ($100 million) from the $3,500,000,000,000.00 ($3.5 trillion) federal budget. I'm so impressed by this sacrifice that I have decided to do the same thing with my personal budget. I spend about $2,000 a month on groceries, household expenses, medicine, utilities, etc., but it's time to get out the budget cutting axe, go through my expenses, and cut back. I'm going to cut my spending at exactly the same ratio (1/35,000) of my total budget. After doing the math, it looks like instead of spending $2,000 a month, I'm going to have to cut that number by six cents. Yes, I'm going to have to get by with $1999.94, but that's what sacrifice is all about. I'll just have to do without some things, that are, frankly, luxuries – six cents worth.

[starving student]

those war utilities are a bitch, especially when you don't list them in your budget

[scott nathaniel]

those war utilities are a bitch, especially when you don't list them in your budget

Hey, I wanted to return your advice, which wasn't too bad:

I also hope the trials and tribulations you're going through don't completely consume you, I'm no stranger to struggles.

I say this because you are heavily consumed.
You also made this suggestion, which you have consistently and tangentially strayed from:

in between the attacks though lets talk about wisconsin. (thumbs up)

From chastising others for not focusing on Wisconsin to war utilities?
So back to Wisconsin: I agree with Barney Frank, it was the wrong fight for the unions and it was at the wrong time. The union there did a disservice, which is not to imply that unions themselves are a disservice. One issue was that employees were asked to contribute more to their own pensions. At a time when the majority of citizens have neither insurance nor pensions, or any type of retirement savings, it is hard to garner empathy for the cause of an exclusive group, and unions are necessarily an exclusive group. But we don't know the full details of the union worker's plan, i.e., benefits, salaries, wages, etc. It would have been more sincere of Scott Walker to have shared the details of his salary and pension, so then the state residents could decide if his pension should be reduced as well as his salary and perks. So in fairness to the supporters of the recall, I neither read nor heard if the Republican faction was offering a similar sacrifice on their part. Probably not.
I was a member with the home healthcare workers union here in California. I have both appreciation and misgivings about the union. They need to be revamped, not dismantled.

[starving student]

consumed no, heavily invested for certain.
I believe in equality. if you believe that foundations have anything to do with the direction of societies
then you know it pays to be invested.

I totally agree about the need for revamping though
but I also think that somebody is clearly having a banner year economically, and at times like these that's no small feat.

[starving student]

wisconsin is now in the throws of trying to figure out how so many could vote against their best interest and it's true these are the strangest political times we have ever seen..

[H20nly]

President Obama ordered the cabinet to cut $100,000,000.00 ($100 million) from the $3,500,000,000,000.00 ($3.5 trillion) federal budget. I'm so impressed by this sacrifice that I have decided to do the same thing with my personal budget. I spend about $2,000 a month on groceries, household expenses, medicine, utilities, etc., but it's time to get out the budget cutting axe, go through my expenses, and cut back. I'm going to cut my spending at exactly the same ratio (1/35,000) of my total budget. After doing the math, it looks like instead of spending $2,000 a month, I'm going to have to cut that number by six cents. Yes, I'm going to have to get by with $1999.94, but that's what sacrifice is all about. I'll just have to do without some things, that are, frankly, luxuries – six cents worth.

holy shit.





clearly the problem here it that you need to spend more. why don't you walk down your street to one of your neighbors houses and start regulating. then you can move the decimal.

[Machinesworking]

wisconsin is now in the throws of trying to figure out how so many could vote against their best interest and it's true these are the strangest political times we have ever seen..

Just an aside, have to disagree with this.
Things have been much, much worse in the past.
The working poor at one point had not a single bit of federal regulation preventing them from being used in exactly the same way that the military uses the marines.
Just check out the lack of safety nets on bridge projects and the brainwashing amount of stupid machismo the workers had. Bridge workers actually for the most part were upset when safety nets were added. When hired thugs slaughtered strikers it didn't result in the arrest of the CEO's that bought the thugs, and often ended up breaking the strike... Things are way less strange, it's just that the voices are louder.

Some people believe that big business will save the economy and some believe the government will. I'm of the belief that big business owns the government and loves that the argument is about unions/government spending VS gay rights/social security rather than pointing the finger at the CEOs and people who have profited off of the recession.

[Machinesworking]

Again, waiting for an answer to this:
How come the european countries that have healthier economies than ours, less national debt and the same standard of living are all more "socialist" than us?
Germany, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Denmark, Netherlands, Norway etc. Countries with roughly our attitude are at our level, England, Ireland etc.
Russia has an oligarchy very arguably, but no national debt to speak of.

Iceland fired everyone involved in their financial meltdown, and are in great shape. Granted they're a tiny country, but they freaking did it! and remember they were as bad a shape as Greece and Ireland.

Basically we (USA) have a shit government, shit politicians that are bought and paid for by vested interest groups, mainly large multinational corporations that do not give a fuck in the least if the economy collapses, in fact they end up swallowing up other less agile corporations, (bank buyouts after the mortgage crisis anyone?) and getting fatter. But yeah it's the fault of some pithy government worker making a decent wage, yeah that's it.