Look At all those people coming together in Wisconsin!!!!!!!

[masterblasterofdisaster]

Unions began to help people that worked in unsafe conditions and were not compensated with a FAIR wage. Today they are for their members only to line their own pockets. Please tell me what giving money to a political party has to do with protecting workers rights against an employer.

Hey, mech. I reckon these donations would serve to ensure fair labor laws are legislated and enforced.

Why should any union have more cash than the corporation the members work for? Maybe they are taking more in dues than they should. Why? It's not hard to figure out.

There are plenty of unions that exist outside of any immediate corporation, so this seems plausible, and perhaps expected. Though, where a union is limited to a given corporation, I don't have a response, as the dynamics are likely unique to each case. I simply do not know.

As posted earlier, I have seen a union protect a member that missed more days in one year than they worked. It is a way to make their self look good and justify the money paid in dues. You wouldn't see this years ago. The Democratic party used to be for the people. Today they are just like the unions. The mentality of people is to believe that just because someone gives them something they are good. By giving handouts they are doing nothing more than buying votes to keep themselves in office.

I understand your sentiment, and I agree that there are conflicts of interest that can arise, as with your example.

Why would you give free healthcare or no taxes on a business for seven years to someone that isn't even a citizen.

Free healthcare and taxfree business operation are rather distinct things, and I'm not aware of examples of the latter for non-citizens. I can at least say that healthcare should be provided where possible on the basis of compassion alone - I realize that isn't a practical point of view, especially these days - it's merely an objective - an ideal, if you will.

At what point do we run out of money. Our tax base has dwindled away because of businesses going to other countries. You may believe this is because the rich want to make more money. It's more because the Federal Government has given the EPA the power to do just about anything they want. The easiest way to control someone is with fear.

I'm working in Canada because my job left the states. My job has left the states because tax incentives in British Columbia are attractive to rather wealthy corporations who want to make more money. Making money is of course the imperative in capitalistic societies, so I can't fault the actions of my employers (and really, their clients who tell my employers where to base their operations, effectively) on these grounds.

I don't follow your seque to the EPA and fear. I await clarification on the matter, if you would like.

I know I rambled on but it all ties together. You don't have to like or believe what I say. Obviously you seem to be smart enough to decide for yourself. All I ask is you keep an open mind and think about some of the points I made.

No, thank you for replying even though you had graciously backed out earlier. I appreciate that this is an emotionally charged topic and it's given to heated argument. I'll stay cool. I just want to understand, as I'm really not well educated in political and economic matters. I've my ideas about things, nothing more.

edit: clarification of tax-free business operation for non-citizens. I'm aware of effectively tax-free operation given gov't subsidies in other instances.

[H20nly]

wow.

good points on both sides of this coin. more please.

@ stringtapper, SS in on a roll here..

The idea of individual bargaining is nothing but a faint dream. The majority of people would have no idea they're underpaid at all. That's exactly why the private industry/corporations/lobbyists need to tell you how bad labour unions are. And it's so easy, too: all you have to do nowadays is to label it socialism.

this is a hard truth.

starving student is right in regard to what unions have done IMO, but mech is right too in noting that the corruption runs deep... i think it's a trickle down from the politicians at the top... OR... it's a trickle up from the shady ways that unions and/or 1960s style U.S. made ripples that will continue to echo.

i'm with masterblaster... i'd like to see more factoids, but i realize that there are no solid lines here. it reminds me of how Obama vs. Romney is being compared to Romney's term as governor... there are parallels sure, but you can't truly compare something with so many variables without an apples to oranges outcome.

[scott nathaniel]

Here is my 2 bits:
The problem is that you have the right-wing mentality, which is that a company has the right to pay a worker whatever wage it sets and disregards the worker's rights(a simplistic interpretation I acknowledge). The union, at the opposite end of the spectrum, focuses on the worker's rights, but disregards the quality of the worker's work. They both then dilute the issue.
Take for instance the, albeit few, teachers who were abusing children in California: Had they not been caught, they would have received all the privileges for which the unions fight. What this equates to is collateral damage. That is the problem with the modern day union; they do not address the quality of worker's work. They are solely the protector of worker's rights. That is as serious an issue as is the disregard that the right-wing seems to exhibit. The glorification of the union has become a left-wing liability. The union of today attempts to insure that Billy gets his 10 minute break while working at Macy's, but makes zero attempts to ensure that Billy works to a standard that justifies his pay. I do believe that Macy's may be getting the better end of the stick, but the unions, in order to justify their existence, will never address whether or not Billy is adhering to the standards he agreed to at the time of employment. The unions spawned from Sinclair Lewis were praiseworthy entities; the unions of today, like the right-wing entities-----meh!

[Linear Phase]

I'm not a neo-con. I don't like the left, and I don't like the right, and I don't like unions, big government, teachers, businessman, politicians, pundits, socialists, fascists, monarchies, dictatorships, democracies, republics, parliaments, armies, atheists, fanatics...

Pretty much anything to do with mainstream society in general. Whomever you are.. be it democrat, republican, business person, teacher.. I'm tired of your constant wining, complaining, selfishness, and all around bullshit.

Peace on Earth. That's all matters. Everything else is pretty much, talking points for the less than enlightened. If anything I'm probably a cross between and independent/libertarian. And I'm definitely in love with the ideas the USA are founded on. Freedom, Liberty, Justice, and Equality. These are the greatest ideas our species has seen so far. Unfortunately, with all the money from both... erm BOTH the left and the right, our government has gotten totally fucked up.

To me.. You suck.. If you are a democrat or a republican. both these parties are corrupt.

[starving student]

I agree with mech as well as far as corruption goes who could deny that, most of it these days or at least a fair amount is open and in your face, but to blame the concept of bargaining doesn't make any sense to me. if you think unions have too much money and wield too much political power then how the hell can you overlook how much money scott walker has compared to the amount his opponent had, it's not even remotely comparable.If you really feel like mech does then how could you support scott walker, how could you support citizens united? I don't get it, math is non-partisan. since the math does not add up at all, it would seem that it's liberal professors and their lines of bs that have you so upset. what is it that liberal professors espouse that is so terrible, is it the notion of equality for minoritities, gender,sexual ? is it that they're against free handouts to corporations, like you are against free hand outs as you call them to poor people and non-citizens. Is it because liberal professors are against out sourcing of american jobs, is it that liberal professors don't want america to be somewhere between 30th and 50th in education in the world? is it because you think a liberal professor wants to take somebody's gun? which liberal professor is less of a humanitarian in your eyes than the koch brothers?
you really think scott walker has the peoples best interest in mind…. really????

unions are not perfect I totally agree, but the gains of unions far outweigh the way things would be without them today.

[starving student]

Here is my 2 bits:
The problem is that you have the right-wing mentality, which is that a company has the right to pay a worker whatever wage it sets and disregards the worker's rights(a simplistic interpretation I acknowledge). The union, at the opposite end of the spectrum, focuses on the worker's rights, but disregards the quality of the worker's work. They both then dilute the issue.
Take for instance the, albeit few, teachers who were abusing children in California: Had they not been caught, they would have received all the privileges for which the unions fight. What this equates to is collateral damage. That is the problem with the modern day union; they do not address the quality of worker's work. They are solely the protector of worker's rights. That is as serious an issue as is the disregard that the right-wing seems to exhibit. The glorification of the union has become a left-wing liability. The union of today attempts to insure that Billy gets his 10 minute break while working at Macy's, but makes zero attempts to ensure that Billy works to a standard that justifies his pay. I do believe that Macy's may be getting the better end of the stick, but the unions, in order to justify their existence, will never address whether or not Billy is adhering to the standards he agreed to at the time of employment. The unions spawned from Sinclair Lewis were praiseworthy entities; the unions of today, like the right-wing entities-----meh!

imo that's not an issue of whether unions should exist or not, any entity has to be regulated cause they are full of good people and bad people and good people that can't do good enough and bad people that are way over qualified in their passions but thats any organization… the right wing is trying to make 'fighting for fairness' some seemingly unworthy ideology , also just like everything else they want to do …. it's been tried before and it didn't work at all oh wait a minute, it did work for some, a small but tiny percent but for the vast amount of people the era without recourse sucked!!!

what about the quality that the auto unions maintaining right now, seems to be pretty frickin good to me

[starving student]

@ mech- and do you think obama just wants to close mines or do you think he wants to mined better seriously be honest. hannity thinks he's the worst president in the history of the world, even though he's never owned a slave or told a women that her place was barefoot in the kitchen and in the bedroom. do you think that it's possible that he actually might rather the country shift to better, safer, healthier energy alternatives…………
of course it wouldn't be easy and of course it wouldn't be quick but do you really think America can survive forever off of the residue from the wet dreams strong thurman had in his heyday ?

[scott nathaniel]

some, a small but tiny percent but for the vast amount of people the era without recourse sucked!!!

what about the quality that the auto unions maintaining right now, seems to be pretty frickin good to me

I wouldn't know; I drive a Toyota. Which car do you drive?

[Machinesworking]

Government jobs generally pay the top union scale for the position. I don't have a problem with that.
The fact is 60k in most areas nationwide is just enough to get a house, keep two cars running, and keep two kids fed.
In many places it's not enough to buy a house and the wife has to work as soon as the kids are in kindergarden. Plus I guarantee you most government workers are not making 60k.

Ask yourself how friendly you would be if you worked at the DMV or any other agency that has no filter cliental wise?

The middle class used to be made up of the 50% of the people out there that weren't management at their office, or worked a skilled labor job etc. but now it's the 9.5% managers and small business owners bellow the .5% that are rich. But yeah, it's all unions and "socialisms" fault....

[scott nathaniel]

But yeah, it's all unions and "socialisms" fault....

No, the fault is with people like you and me and starving student, who categorize the world into terms like middle class, rich, business owners, unions, socialists, capitalists, but forget that the world really consists of individuals who are, each on their own, facing a plight that we all face, which is life. The middle class is just a euphemism for twats like us to pontificate upon. Do you really care about the middle class? I'll be flamed, but eff the middle class. The middle class for me represents mediocracy, boredom, horrible cinema, numbing music, tract homes, suburbs, strip malls, forums, facebook, social networks. What is the middle class?

[starving student]

But yeah, it's all unions and "socialisms" fault....

No, the fault is with people like you and me and starving student, who categorize the world into terms like middle class, rich, business owners, unions, socialists, capitalists, but forget that the world really consists of individuals who are, each on their own, facing a plight that we all face, which is life. The middle class is just a euphemism for twats like us to pontificate upon. Do you really care about the middle class? I'll be flamed, but eff the middle class. The middle class for me represents mediocracy, boredom, horrible cinema, numbing music, tract homes, suburbs, strip malls, forums, facebook, social networks. What is the middle class?

we're more than individuals, we're all connected. The problem is that some of us like to deny that most basic of realities. btw I ride a bike, but it's a hummer bike

[Linear Phase]

numbing music

Read all about it: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/peopl ... four-hours

[starving student]

we want to be #1 so bad, but we don't care about education
we want clean air, food that is safe to eat and toys that don't kill our children but we don't want regulations
we want to be paid more than 12 cents an hour and to know that when we leave our homes early in the morning to go down miles into the ground to work all day that we won't die there but we don't want unions
we want small government but we want government large enough to go everywhere in the world and run other governments
we want even smaller government but we want to create an army of panty police to govern the crotches of america
on
and
on
and
on

[scott nathaniel]

we're more than individuals, we're all connected. The problem is that some of us like to deny that most basic of realities. btw I ride a bike, but it's a hummer bike

You ride a bike? So then you know nothing of the auto industry! No, we are nothing more than individuals, because your rhetoric does nothing for anybody but inflate your own ego. Your statements are not an attempt to connect; they are simply your own delusional attempt to score points; and with whom---yourself. That is an individualistic approach to life. Perhaps I misinterpret your motives.

[starving student]

trust me my ego isn't large enough to disconnect us. If you really think we are nothing more than individuals then you really have no concept of what nature is but it does explain some of your leanings. So it's all about my ego, yet your the 'other, the one apart, the individual with no connection to others', I suppose that exempts you from all obligations. and you say I'm the one that is delusional …….
and finally I know nothing about the car industry because I ride a bike… wow you're just chock full of goodies.


btw you may have misinterpreted my motives but you have represented yourself accurately and that's much more important.