Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

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justjohn_jj
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by justjohn_jj » Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:39 pm

Wouldn't it be fairer to specify which governments and which corporations?

The Disney corporation scares me more than the Government of the Seychelles does, but less than the Government of France does.
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djadonis206
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by djadonis206 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:55 pm

justjohn_jj wrote:Wouldn't it be fairer to specify which governments and which corporations?

The Disney corporation scares me more than the Government of the Seychelles does, but less than the Government of France does.
That's an interesting question because it is hard to know where to draw the line. But in general, I mean all levels of government and all corporations. Obviously, you can pick and choose the ones that back up your argument.

But if we have to be specific, I mean corporations that have more than 500 employees and all levels of government, from the White House to City Hall.
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justjohn_jj
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by justjohn_jj » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:05 am

djadonis206 wrote:Obviously, you can pick and choose the ones that back up your argument.
All righty then, I choose this corporation. As powerful as any government at the time. It and its western brother had power of life and death over half the globe, and they arguably invented the Afro-American slave trade.
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by djadonis206 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:09 am

That's interesting
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by justjohn_jj » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:13 am

(Full disclosure: I reside in the former colony of New Netherlands.)
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pulsoc
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by pulsoc » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:00 am

Adonis I recommend reading an interesting article on the history of corporations at http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2011/06/08/a- ... 0-to-2100/

Also it is interesting, you seem to conflate increasing government role for maintaining order (e.g. police power enforcement) with decreasing entitlement policies (reducing medical benefits).

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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by Machinesworking » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:07 am

I'm more afraid of corporations in this country. Had I been around during and after the Soviet revolution I would be more afraid of the government. When the government takes over all means of production/financial resources then corporate power is not an issue. The problem with the question for a lot of countries really but especially the United States is it's almost impossible to separate them, most government decisions are made with corporate interests in mind. Also, if you're talking about "fear" being afraid, then special interest groups that regulate industry for environmental reasons or lobby for minority or gay rights are not IMO a threat. Special interest groups (corporations) that lobby for more military spending, fear mongering to the point that actual rights of every US citizen are took away etc. then you have a real threat.

We are not on the verge of a liberal revolution, so the fear I think is righteously directed at corporations and the whole lobbyist system that allows them to bend laws in their favor based not on some possible extinction or a real/perceived minority group injustice but on pure profit regardless of the human element, is a real fear.
IE- the question is flawed silly rabbit, there is no perceivable government or corporation as separate entities, there is only the military industrial complex. The rest is smoke and mirrors. :twisted:

IMO this is our sad legacy from the Cold War, we have never gotten away from the war time economy model, and I don't know if we really know how to have any other system in place?

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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by doghouse » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:17 am

Corporations by far. That's because they only have to answer to shareholders and can operate worldwide, giving them much more reach than any single government.

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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by simmerdown » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:27 am

i'm not afraid of either...i feel bad for them

must be some miserable bastards, brown-nosing, covering their asses and watching their backs 24/7

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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by ShelLuser » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:43 am

djadonis206 wrote:Bear in mind that the government, at least in the US, has a monopoly on the use of force and violence. This single point of authority means that the government can compel anyone or any entity to do what they want.
Didn't read the whole thread (yet), gonna barch right in there...

Both.

Corporations often play the government but its the government which allows itself to be played.

Either way it is scary as fuck what some of those pricks are up to IMVHO.

Take, for example, the issue of "energy saving lightbulbs" in Europe. Dunno how it is over in the US obviously, but here an European mandate states that the regular lightbulbs cannot be sold anymore due to environmental issues (they use up energy, release much heat (and light) but the heat factor is supposedly a waste of energy).

As such "environmental friendly" "spaarlampen" (as we call them in Holland) or "energy saving bulbs" have been introduced. Amazing; with only 20 - 30 watts you simulate a 60 - 80 watt regular bulb.

But here's the thing.... Not only do these critters get extremely hot just like their predecessors, researches have indicated that there is a lot completely wrong with these things.

Heavy metals for starters (mercury; if you break one of these you're in a lot of potential trouble). Electro smog for seconds. Monitors, tv's, etc. are heavily regulated as to the amount of radiation they may emit. There by European law enforced "energy saving bulbs" often emit 30 to 40 times the maximum amount of allowed energy which a monitor may emit.

Boy; its doing great for the environment, too bad about those humans...

Worse yet... Recent studies indicated that most of the there "green lights" (to give 'm a name) not only emit 'electro smog'; they also release toxic gasses (small amounts) such as radion, mercury and others. Its already an official given that you'd best not set these up as a desk light.

All for the "environment".

Or could it be that upcoming rumours are true after all... With the current prices no more money was to be made with regular light bulbs as such the industry needed something new. Something more expensive...

Corporations control the governments, yes, but its that same government which allows it to happen.

At the very least you somewhat know where corporations stand for: revenue.

With the government this is always a somewhat vague issue IMO.

Which IMVHO makes them both quite scary.
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by stringtapper » Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:35 pm

ShelLuser wrote:Boy; its doing great for the environment, too bad about those humans...
I support any government or corporation that helps make more of this happen.

I can see a new global environmental campaign slogan now:

"We're cleaning up the planet, one human at a time."

*thumbs up*
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by knotkranky » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:33 pm

Humans are exactly the problem. They/we made all this but i agree with the fact that we are privileged to live in a golden time of human civilization. Shit be hitting fan in a few hundred years. An eye blink in terms.

Anyway, I'm not trying to minimize points made already, just on my own bent. But what we live in is a long evolving result of social structures and survival behaviors since the beginning of time. Government is a rolling unstoppable cluster-fuck that'll take many many generations or hundreds of years of meaningful progress towards a higher social standard to improve. When has it ever been better? How about a hundred years ago, same problems! 5,000 years ago, same problems! You bet Cavemen were stealing, raping and murdering each other. Corruption cannot be avoided. There has never, nor will there ever be no corruption. The bigger the machine, the deeper the corruption, and countries are big/deep. Thankfully, not making it worse is still progress. Government is your best bet but it needs improvement. Take back government is right.

stringtapper
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by stringtapper » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:43 pm

funken wrote:It's not humans that are the problem, it's the free market. Profit comes first, and the planet will be rendered uninhabitable as a result. Gaia is real and it will wreak it's revenge. Trust me, I'm a trained geologist as well as a political pundit. We are one of the last generations on this planet. Global warming is real and unstoppable. We are trashing the world for future generations.
Right, I forgot. The "free market" was dug up at an archeological site. They think it landed here millions of years ago in a meteor crash.

Get real. Of course humans are the problem. We have created all of the machinations to ensure our own destruction.

We are our own worst enemy, and some day we are going to win.

funken wrote:We are one of the last generations on this planet.
I doubt it, but a man can dream…
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stringtapper
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by stringtapper » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:12 pm

funken wrote:It's a nightmare not a dream. It's already killing people. And it's not just global warming. Land degradation, water shortages and so on are all big and growing problems, and linked. Billions will die needlessly over the next 100 years.
Your nightmare, my dream.

See that's the problem with ideologues like you, be they conservative or liberal. You always think everyone needs to think exactly like you do and if they don't then they're "wrong", or stupid, or a sinner, or greedy, or… etc.…

Sorry if I won't comply with your moral demands.

I'm of the opinion that there's only one surefire way to end all human suffering. Fortunately we're well on our way to the solution, but I doubt it will happen within the next generation.
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scott nathaniel
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by scott nathaniel » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:36 pm

I believe in global warming, and that is why I moved to the desert: To prepare. I am surrounded by post apocalyptic scenery, leather-faced road warriors, and when it reaches 108 degrees outside, I say: Gee, it's cold today. My balls have permanently retreated into my stomach because 98 degrees is a more hospitable environment than 115. The plus side to this is that I can now store prickly pears in my empty sack. They have great water content and delectable fruit. Global Warming: Embrace it!

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