Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

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stringtapper
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by stringtapper » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:54 pm

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stringtapper
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by stringtapper » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:55 pm

funken wrote:
stringtapper wrote:
funken wrote:It's a nightmare not a dream. It's already killing people. And it's not just global warming. Land degradation, water shortages and so on are all big and growing problems, and linked. Billions will die needlessly over the next 100 years.
Your nightmare, my dream.

See that's the problem with ideologues like you, be they conservative or liberal. You always think everyone needs to think exactly like you do and if they don't then they're "wrong", or stupid, or a sinner, or greedy, or… etc.…

Sorry if I won't comply with your moral demands.

I'm of the opinion that there's only one surefire way to end all human suffering. Fortunately we're well on our way to the solution, but I doubt it will happen within the next generation.
What is your dream, for the human race to die out? I can't work out what you're saying here.
Maybe not a dream in the sense that it's something I pine about.

An expectation? Certainly (and one with which you seem to agree).

What I think would be best for this planet and for the human race itself? Absolutely.

But there's not much I can do about it. Vaporizing the entire human population instantly is a pretty tall order for one guy.

So I devote my life to music, one of the few redeeming aspects of human existence.
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cmcpress
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by cmcpress » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:03 pm

stringtapper wrote:So I devote my life to music, one of the few redeeming aspects of human existence.
bit of a diversion this - but is it though? I struggle with this myself and I constantly feel that, rather instead of tapping away at a keyboard I should be out helping people or doing stuff that really matters - you know like building houses, putting in clean water, building infrastructures in poorer countries, picketing a runway, fighting for human rights, trying to devise an alternative to wasteful capitalism - that kind of thing.

I remember having a chat with a well-ish known producer a few years back and the best we could come up with was that dedicating your life to music was a profoundly selfish thing to do - particularly if you have a family.

cmcpress
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by cmcpress » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:16 pm

djadonis206 wrote:When corporations fail, people loose money and jobs. When government fails, people loose their lives.

Government is suppose to enforce and uphold regulations/laws. When it fails to do so, people die. Example, the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico a couple years back.
I take your point - but in the latter example, oil spills happen despite regulation. IIRC the particularly pipe in question wasn't up to code. Also this reinforces my point - that Corporations constantly put pressure on Govt's to remove regulations - we wouldn't be in the financial mess we're in if the controls bought in by New Deal in the 30's hadn't been slowly and surely repealed by Reagan et al.

Largely, and particularly in the US and UK - I see Govt's as becoming more and more impotent to the corporate lobby. The hacking scandal is a case in point - here was an organisation (News corp) colluding with a government agency (the police) to pervert the course of justice. And if the Guardian hadn't kept the pressure on, we would never have found out about it - and successive govt's were too afraid of taking on Murdoch because they were worried about the wroth of Rupert.

I think the line you're drawing between corporations and Govt is artificial though. The two have a parasitic relationship and to say which ones are you more scared of, is nonsense. By and large the people in Government are also those with direct ties to the same large corporations. There are too many vested interests all round.

Case in point - often the hawks in Govt are the same people with major shareholdings in arms or security firms. The whole idea of security firms - as privatised armies effectively is much more fucking worrying than state controlled armies. And it's happening with the police now - there will be much more conflict between police and private security firms that take up control of gated estates - it's happening now in the UK.

The balance of power between corporations and government is testy and interconnected - and that in itself is a cause for concern. But at least I know that if my government goes too far and loses support I and my countrymen can bring them to account. Try doing that to a corporation. How long have we been waiting for Dow to payout on Bhopal?

stringtapper
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by stringtapper » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:24 pm

cmcpress wrote:
stringtapper wrote:So I devote my life to music, one of the few redeeming aspects of human existence.
bit of a diversion this - but is it though? I struggle with this myself and I constantly feel that, rather instead of tapping away at a keyboard I should be out helping people or doing stuff that really matters - you know like building houses, putting in clean water, building infrastructures in poorer countries, picketing a runway, fighting for human rights, trying to devise an alternative to wasteful capitalism - that kind of thing.

I remember having a chat with a well-ish known producer a few years back and the best we could come up with was that dedicating your life to music was a profoundly selfish thing to do - particularly if you have a family.
"Redeeming" means "compensating for the faults of something" and seeing how faulty our race and its existence is I'm quite content with considering music to be one of its few redeeming aspects.

Whether you or anyone considers that selfish is a moral argument and really has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Liberals often like to rightly point out that the right-wingers shouldn't be pushing their moral agenda on others but then they never seem to blink when it comes to pushing their own moral agenda on others.

All those things you listed that "really matter" only really matter to you and people who think like you. The people on the opposite end of the ideological spectrum have their own list of things they think "really matter."

I really don't give a shit about either of those lists.
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simmerdown
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by simmerdown » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:40 pm

yeah, we're so screwed

scott nathaniel
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by scott nathaniel » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:48 pm

stringtapper wrote:
cmcpress wrote:
stringtapper wrote:So I devote my life to music, one of the few redeeming aspects of human existence.
bit of a diversion this - but is it though? I struggle with this myself and I constantly feel that, rather instead of tapping away at a keyboard I should be out helping people or doing stuff that really matters - you know like building houses, putting in clean water, building infrastructures in poorer countries, picketing a runway, fighting for human rights, trying to devise an alternative to wasteful capitalism - that kind of thing.

I remember having a chat with a well-ish known producer a few years back and the best we could come up with was that dedicating your life to music was a profoundly selfish thing to do - particularly if you have a family.
"Redeeming" means "compensating for the faults of something" and seeing how faulty our race and its existence is I'm quite content with considering music to be one of its few redeeming aspects.

Whether you or anyone considers that selfish is a moral argument and really has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Liberals often like to rightly point out that the right-wingers shouldn't be pushing their moral agenda on others but then they never seem to blink when it comes to pushing their own moral agenda on others.

All those things you listed that "really matter" only really matter to you and people who think like you. The people on the opposite end of the ideological spectrum have their own list of things they think "really matter."

I really don't give a shit about either of those lists.
Also, these cookie-cutter ways to help or give back sometimes come across as a thinly veiled means to alleviate any personal guilt that one may feel. That, too, seems selfish rather than an act of altruism. If one wants to build a house or drop of cans of old S&W green beans to the food-bank, then go, do it. But it should be because one feels compelled from a natural inclination to help---not to dutifully check off presets from the list provided through some non-existent social contract.

LoopStationZebra
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by LoopStationZebra » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:50 pm

KILL. LIST.

Thank you.

:x
I came for the :lol:
But stayed for the :x

stringtapper
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by stringtapper » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:07 pm

LoopStationZebra wrote:KILL. LIST.

Thank you.

:x
No, thank YOU.

:x
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cmcpress
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by cmcpress » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:49 pm

stringtapper wrote:Whether you or anyone considers that selfish is a moral argument
Well the selfishness itself wouldn't be a moral argument. Whether you view that (or even care) if selfishness in and of itself is "bad" is a moral judgement, yes. For the record the conclusion we came to was that, for the most part, it is inherently selfish.

Now whilst selfishness isn't nesc. a quality one associates with redemption (a loaded term in itself), i guess would depend upon which angle you're coming at - what exactly do you find redemptive about music?
stringtapper wrote:and really has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
Well there seems to be a bit of Dad's Army "we're doomed, captain mannering" -ness about what you're saying, but point taken.
stringtapper wrote:Liberals often like to rightly point out that the right-wingers shouldn't be pushing their moral agenda on others but then they never seem to blink when it comes to pushing their own moral agenda on others.
No one pushing a moral agenda from this end - so far. A matter of fact isn't a moral agenda. Debating something isn't pushing an agenda. Calling a selfish act a selfish act doesn't imply judgement unless you feel that selfishness is inherently wrong, whatever that means.
stringtapper wrote:All those things you listed that "really matter" only really matter to you and people who think like you.
Well I expect that they would matter to the people who would receive the water infrastructure and so on too.
stringtapper wrote: The people on the opposite end of the ideological spectrum have their own list of things they think "really matter."

I really don't give a shit about either of those lists.
And that's rather the point isn't it. I don't know you well enough to ascertain whether that's worldly cynicism or sitting on a misplaced fence, or even if there's any difference.
stringtapper wrote:Brain the size of a planet and I end up writing on this forum, Call that job satisfaction, because I don't...etc...

cmcpress
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by cmcpress » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:06 pm

scott nathaniel wrote:Also, these cookie-cutter ways to help or give back sometimes come across as a thinly veiled means to alleviate any personal guilt that one may feel. That, too, seems selfish rather than an act of altruism.
Again, a slightly cynical view on human nature. Why can't you want to help someone just because you identify with their strife and want to help them? It's quite a natural thing for a person with a fully working sense of empathy to identify with and want to alleviate the suffering of their fellow man - Some scientists think this is wired into our biology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

It seems you're somewhat unfairly picking on an arbitrary list of cliched activities I plucked out of a hat to get the point across - ie that I should be doing something that "matters" (whatever that means) instead of mind wanking in front of a computer on an Ableton tune.
scott nathaniel wrote: If one wants to build a house or drop of cans of old S&W green beans to the food-bank, then go, do it. But it should be because one feels compelled from a natural inclination to help---not to dutifully check off presets from the list provided through some non-existent social contract.
In all honesty I'm not sure, in practical terms, if the motivation is as important if the net effect - it's probably relevant only in a moral sense - ie that the action is not hypocritical.

People's motivations for actions are never clear cut - beyond responsive or reflexive actions - motivations can be muddied and paradoxical - It may well be that the actions for doing something are both altruistic and non-altruistic at the same time - how can you tell if you want to help someone because you get a buzz from helping people, or because you identify with their suffering or because you feel a sense of duty?

What's wrong with duty in this instance? Arguably a sense of duty is a responsible act - and it acknowledges that society is a group of interconnected beings operating for mutual benefit.

How can you tell the precise moment you chose to act?

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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by scott nathaniel » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:21 pm

cmcpress wrote:
scott nathaniel wrote:Also, these cookie-cutter ways to help or give back sometimes come across as a thinly veiled means to alleviate any personal guilt that one may feel. That, too, seems selfish rather than an act of altruism.
Again, a slightly cynical view on human nature. Why can't you want to help someone just because you identify with their strife and want to help them? It's quite a natural thing for a person with a fully working sense of empathy to identify with and want to alleviate the suffering of their fellow man - Some scientists think this is wired into our biology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

It seems you're somewhat unfairly picking on an arbitrary list of cliched activities I plucked out of a hat to get the point across - ie that I should be doing something that "matters" (whatever that means) instead of mind wanking in front of a computer on an Ableton tune.
scott nathaniel wrote: If one wants to build a house or drop of cans of old S&W green beans to the food-bank, then go, do it. But it should be because one feels compelled from a natural inclination to help---not to dutifully check off presets from the list provided through some non-existent social contract.
In all honesty I'm not sure, in practical terms, if the motivation is as important if the net effect - it's probably relevant only in a moral sense - ie that the action is not hypocritical.

People's motivations for actions are never clear cut - beyond responsive or reflexive actions - motivations can be muddied and paradoxical - It may well be that the actions for doing something are both altruistic and non-altruistic at the same time - how can you tell if you want to help someone because you get a buzz from helping people, or because you identify with their suffering or because you feel a sense of duty?

What's wrong with duty in this instance? Arguably a sense of duty is a responsible act - and it acknowledges that society is a group of interconnected beings operating for mutual benefit.

How can you tell the precise moment you chose to act?
Yes! I am admittedly cynical. I see your points and believe they are worth consideration.
Yes! There are acute issues that need to be addressed-hunger, water shortage, a declining environment, etc. I don't dispute that. My claim about cookie cutter issues, is that people sometimes forget that there are systematic social illnesses that can't be rectified or treated through ordinary measures. I'm being vague, but society, to me, is just the macro version of the micro, which would be each individual. We have to fix ourselves before we can fix the larger collective. That may easily be construed as self-interest, but who are we to help others and deem it genuine help if we can't even live by our own words or ideals. I don't believe I've ever met anyone who actually fully embodied there ideals, rants, tirades, and what-have-you. Especially not myself.

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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by cmcpress » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:39 pm

scott nathaniel wrote:Yes! I am admittedly cynical. I see your points and believe they are worth consideration.
Yes! There are acute issues that need to be addressed-hunger, water shortage, a declining environment, etc. I don't dispute that/
My claim about cookie cutter issues, is that people sometimes forget that there are systematic social illnesses that can't be rectified or treated through ordinary measures.
This is true - but these are complicated issues that take time to resolve - and things need to be tried and tested and some of these things will fail. It's better to do something, fail at it, learn from it and move on, than not to do anything at all.
scott nathaniel wrote:I'm being vague, but society, to me, is just the macro version of the micro, which would be each individual. We have to fix ourselves before we can fix the larger collective. That may easily be construed as self-interest, but
Well in an ideal world this would be the case. But in the time we're taking to delve deep into our inner selves, that well isn't getting built and those villagers aren't going to survive without clean water.

My point being that there are practical things we can do to alleviate suffering, but the long term work to alleviate the things that cause suffering will have to continue until a practical solution is found.
scott nathaniel wrote:who are we to help others and deem it genuine help if we can't even live by our own words or ideals. I don't believe I've ever met anyone who actually fully embodied there ideals, rants, tirades, and what-have-you. Especially not myself.
we'd be human. And that's all we can ever be really. There's no such thing as perfection.

Depending upon the content of the rants, tirades etc.. it's just a way to explore options and find out for ourselves - we're not born knowing the answers (or maybe we are but they get muddled up and lost) - we have to kind of make mistakes, say some shit that's bad and find out for ourselves.

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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by scott nathaniel » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:43 pm

cmcpress wrote: and find out for ourselves.
This!

stringtapper
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by stringtapper » Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:45 pm

cmcpress wrote:what exactly do you find redemptive about music?
For the most part it is not all of the things that most people don't like about human existence that could be summed up into one term like "human suffering" (dubstep notwithstanding). I'm using the term "redeem" in the strictest sense of something that is considered positive compensating for something negative. Although in my case it's not so much a positive/negative duality but rather what I would rather spend my time and brain power thinking about.


cmcpress wrote:
stringtapper wrote:Liberals often like to rightly point out that the right-wingers shouldn't be pushing their moral agenda on others but then they never seem to blink when it comes to pushing their own moral agenda on others.
No one pushing a moral agenda from this end - so far. A matter of fact isn't a moral agenda. Debating something isn't pushing an agenda. Calling a selfish act a selfish act doesn't imply judgement unless you feel that selfishness is inherently wrong, whatever that means.
Oh come one. The people in this thread talking about corporations or governments being the roots of everything that is "wrong" with human existence? Those are quite clearly moral arguments at least inasmuch as they imply an existing condition that is "negative" and "should" be changed.


cmcpress wrote:
stringtapper wrote:All those things you listed that "really matter" only really matter to you and people who think like you.
Well I expect that they would matter to the people who would receive the water infrastructure and so on too.
Ok, them too. *shrug*


cmcpress wrote:
stringtapper wrote: The people on the opposite end of the ideological spectrum have their own list of things they think "really matter."

I really don't give a shit about either of those lists.
And that's rather the point isn't it. I don't know you well enough to ascertain whether that's worldly cynicism or sitting on a misplaced fence, or even if there's any difference.
In my opinion it's not allowing myself to be deluded into thinking that 8 billion humans will ever agree on one right way that they should all live or one set of right principle on which to base their actions and thus human suffering will continue. I also believe it will be this way irrespective of who is in charge or has influence over what. Corporations vs. government? Obviously a left vs right issue and it's clear where most people in this thread stand, which is fairly predictable seeing as it's a forum that's going to attract people who tend to default to left wind positions. I don't see that any differently than if we were on a gun forum and 90% of the people were writing long posts about how it's the government we should fear. To my mind people are predisposed to these points of view based on how they grew up and what kind of environments they gravitate towards adults. The point is people like to act like they know exactly what is going on and why, and they also know exactly who to blame and how to fix it. I see it from both my conservative and liberal friends on FaceBook every day. It's annoying and frankly boring how predictable people can be. Most music isn't boring (to me).


cmcpress wrote:
stringtapper wrote:Brain the size of a planet and I end up writing on this forum, Call that job satisfaction, because I don't...etc...
But Marvin might actually have the ability to figure out how to vaporize 8 billion people.
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