Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

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cmcpress
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by cmcpress » Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:18 pm

stringtapper wrote:
cmcpress wrote:what exactly do you find redemptive about music?
For the most part it is not all of the things that most people don't like about human existence that could be summed up into one term like "human suffering" (dubstep notwithstanding). I'm using the term "redeem" in the strictest sense of something that is considered positive compensating for something negative. Although in my case it's not so much a positive/negative duality but rather what I would rather spend my time and brain power thinking about.
Well that's the selfish part really isn't it. You're saying - fuck everything else, it can all go to hell as far as I'm concerned I just wants me some music. That's an observation, not a criticism.
stringtapper wrote:
cmcpress wrote:No one pushing a moral agenda from this end - so far. A matter of fact isn't a moral agenda. Debating something isn't pushing an agenda. Calling a selfish act a selfish act doesn't imply judgement unless you feel that selfishness is inherently wrong, whatever that means.
Oh come one. The people in this thread talking about corporations or governments being the roots of everything that is "wrong" with human existence? Those are quite clearly moral arguments at least inasmuch as they imply an existing condition that is "negative" and "should" be changed.
Well - I was specifically referring to no moral judgement on selfishness as it refers to creating music - but I can see how you would construe it in that light in the context of the whole thread.
stringtapper wrote:
cmcpress wrote:And that's rather the point isn't it. I don't know you well enough to ascertain whether that's worldly cynicism or sitting on a misplaced fence, or even if there's any difference.
In my opinion it's not allowing myself to be deluded into thinking that 8 billion humans will ever agree on one right way that they should all live or one set of right principle on which to base their actions and thus human suffering will continue. I also believe it will be this way irrespective of who is in charge or has influence over what. Corporations vs. government? Obviously a left vs right issue and it's clear where most people in this thread stand, which is fairly predictable seeing as it's a forum that's going to attract people who tend to default to left wind positions. I don't see that any differently than if we were on a gun forum and 90% of the people were writing long posts about how it's the government we should fear. To my mind people are predisposed to these points of view based on how they grew up and what kind of environments they gravitate towards adults. The point is people like to act like they know exactly what is going on and why, and they also know exactly who to blame and how to fix it. I see it from both my conservative and liberal friends on FaceBook every day. It's annoying and frankly boring how predictable people can be. Most music isn't boring (to me).
No one is saying that 8 Billion humans will ever agree on one right way. and it would be terrifically boring and inflexible if they did. But there are practical solutions to practical problems that can achievable measurable results - depending on whether people can agree on what the problems are (which is half the battle).

I agree that people have natural perceptual biases - but people can and frequently do change their minds on issues if they become involved in debate. Even people and society's who's attitudes are deemed to be inflexible, can frequently change their attitudes as a result of a reasoned debate. Often it's those who represent the most fixed stances that are on the weakest ground.

For my self - in British terms, I was raised in a very conservative family and parroted conservative values for years until I began to question them - As I'm older I take a very centrist position thinking that points on each side have merits.

There's no harm in being involved in debate - even if it seems fruitless - as I said above - simply expressing your opinion is a way of testing it to see if it holds validity or not. Whether one chooses to accept, or refute any knocks on your position depends upon how open you are to testing your convictions.

As to the validity of a conversation on this forum - it's just shooting shit really isn't it? There's no harm in expressing points of view, and at the end of the day you must have cared just a little bit to come in this thread and engage in the first place?
stringtapper wrote:But Marvin might actually have the ability to figure out how to vaporize 8 billion people.
if he wasn't so busy taking people to the Bridge.

djadonis206
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by djadonis206 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:22 am

I'm glad this thread sparked some interesting conversation.

My belief that people should fear government more than corporations stems from my perspective as an older black man (I'm 37) and my education (I hold a Master of Public Administration degree from a public policy school). In graduate school I took a of lot of courses in economics and particularly benefit-cost analysis. My viewpoint is also informed by my growing interest in American history.

The federal, State, and local levels of government have enacted and failed to enforce so many detrimental laws it's scary.

Corporations come and go with the times but the government is constant and there's nothing you can do about that. There will always be a government.

The idea that corporations own government is interesting but I don't buy it (no pun intended). Corporations, like unions and civil rights groups have an interest in shaping policy to their favor when policy has a large enough impact. That's the economic way of thinking. The reason why more people do not stand up to government is because certain policy have such a diffuse and small impact, it's not worth it for everyone to organize and lobby government. We're too heterogenous. This dynamic also explains why some people don't vote.

Anywayz, please continue. I'm curious - conspiracy theories aside
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ShelLuser
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by ShelLuser » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:13 am

LoopStationZebra wrote:KILL. LIST.

Thank you.
No thanks.

One of the best threads on this forum right now. Heavy discussions, people discussing with respect for ones opinion... What's there not to like?
With kind regards,

Peter

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Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by ShelLuser » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:28 am

cmcpress wrote:
djadonis206 wrote:When corporations fail, people loose money and jobs. When government fails, people loose their lives.

Government is suppose to enforce and uphold regulations/laws. When it fails to do so, people die. Example, the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico a couple years back.
I take your point - but in the latter example, oil spills happen despite regulation.
I'm taking another twist here... How good of a regulation did we deal with here?

Several sources have already proven that this oil spill was "weird" right from the start. The oil rig was maintained by $company, it was allegedly well within the regulated standards and all of a sudden shit started to happen well within the period where those regulations where to be tested.

If regulations were followed then the shortcomings would have surfaced.

That kind of shit is a global issue nowadays.

Different story; same source of problems:

Over here in Holland we had the "DSB Bank". DSB stands for "Dirk Scheringa" who was the founder of said bank. DSB often got in the media because they offered loans. "At a cheaper interest then anyone else". It was quite clear that their income rested on those loans, but despite that; some people put their savings on this bank as well. Because...

It was officially, under Dutch law, a bank in every right.

Things shifted, problems occurred, people who were under totally insane DSB obligations got into the news and finally one economic of high esteem said: "People are better off taking all the money they have from this "bank" because its untrustworthy".

The bank fell, problems arised and who was to blame?

Only years later did it turn out that while this was officially a bank they never, not even from the getgo, ever met the standard regulations required for actually being acknowledged as a bank.

Yet they still were. Under Dutch (the governments) law.

Oh my...

Did heads start to roll, did the overseeing institution (responsible for the status) take a fall, did anything happen?

Of course not! No, the owner / founder of the bank was held responsible and everything else goes on pretty much as usual.

Yes; this is Holland. We're small.

But honestly; this is the kind of shit you can expect in your country too. The bigger the country the harder it most likely is to find.

Bottom line; regulations very often mean shit when not regulated. And that's where a lot of the problems start...
With kind regards,

Peter

Using the 'Power' Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Maschine Mk3 (+ the ultimate Komplete 12).
Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

knotkranky
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by knotkranky » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:24 am

djadonis206 wrote:I'm glad this thread sparked some interesting conversation.

My belief that people should fear government more than corporations stems from my perspective as an older black man (I'm 37) and my education (I hold a Master of Public Administration degree from a public policy school). In graduate school I took a of lot of courses in economics and particularly benefit-cost analysis. My viewpoint is also informed by my growing interest in American history.

The federal, State, and local levels of government have enacted and failed to enforce so many detrimental laws it's scary.

Corporations come and go with the times but the government is constant and there's nothing you can do about that. There will always be a government.

The idea that corporations own government is interesting but I don't buy it (no pun intended). Corporations, like unions and civil rights groups have an interest in shaping policy to their favor when policy has a large enough impact. That's the economic way of thinking. The reason why more people do not stand up to government is because certain policy have such a diffuse and small impact, it's not worth it for everyone to organize and lobby government. We're too heterogenous. This dynamic also explains why some people don't vote.

Anywayz, please continue. I'm curious - conspiracy theories aside
People shouldn't fear government of course, but they should feel responsible for government. They should strive to improve it at every opportunity. Especially when a precious vote is involved. It's not perfect but we can truly move things. Voters for Obama proved that and restored my faith in people power. The whitest power in the world couldn't stop him from being elected. Now, that made some nice strides in social evolution if you ask me.

To every one concerning people and this planet; it is what it is. You can figure out how we all got here to this point, but we're not really heading in any direction to speak of anyway. Just behemoth entities trying to win. We're their cash machine. Those are the main cogs in this mess.

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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by djadonis206 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:28 am

It's true. People have a lot of power. Corporations and government wouldn't exist without them. But what does that say about people and the fear corporations and governments invoke?

Without courage, there is no fear*

*Okay, I jacked that from Batman - without hope, there can be no desperation :)
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knotkranky
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by knotkranky » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:55 am

Yeah, i getcha. People gotta get fed up and inspired. Arabs have had a couple great years for that for sure. Lots of good history for mobs too but i dunno if the U.S. have it in us. We respond pretty well to all the disinformation and media distractions. Fish in a barrel for most of the planet really. TV, billboards, radio. It's all we need to zombie out and there's a ton of them all fighting for our headspace. Bananas.

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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by Machinesworking » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:36 am

funken wrote: The Soviet government was not something to be feared by ordinary citizens in the early days. However things changed for reasons that are a bit complicated to explain in a nutshell and belong on my Stalin thread anyway.
Point me to it, but IMO you're wrong about the Soviet government. They were the dictatorial extremists from the get go. The upper middle and ruling class very much had something to be feared, and although in a totalitarian autocracy like the Tsar ran, that meant that these people were 'blue blood', it's still a matter that they themselves had little to do with. Plus a lot of the ruling class in Russia were also sick to death of the Tsar.
Since you mentioned the Cold War though, I'll just throw in a fact not many people know. Stalin wanted to be America's ally
Stalin read Mein Kamf or was at least informed of it's contents, he was aware that Hitler hated communists as much as he hated jews. He made offering of treaties to both the US and UK before Hitler approached him. Of course the only reason Hitler wanted to ally with the Soviets was to annex Poland so he could more easily invade Russia etc. I think Stalin was aware that Hitler would eventually invade, but he was caught off guard when Hitler invaded before settling with England.
and he wanted to stop countries having socialist revolutions. But he failed to ensure Eastern Europe etc became capitalist. Truman got impatient and started the Cold War so he could intervene in Greece, where Stalin had failed to hold back the Communists.
A little off there. Stalin won out over Trotsky in part because Trotsky wanted to have continual expansion of communist ideology, he wanted to keep going until all of Europe was living the peoples paradise etc. Stalin was an isolationist, this gave him allies at home, and made him vulnerable to the Nazis. It's not that he minded other communist revolutions happening, he just didn't care until the Nazis invaded and made the threat of capitalist based dictatorships a reality to him. IMO the Soviet-ising of the eastern block after WWII was quite literally done to prevent another invasion on Russian soil. Also it was actually Stalin and Churchill that were responsible for Greece, they left the USA out of it. Basically they divided up the politically unstable countries in Europe into 'spheres of influence', Yugoslavia was given to Soviet backing and Greece to English etc. Greece IMO could have been the first democratic communist state, but English influence was supreme there so Stalin stepped back.

It's all pretty fascinating really, the one thing that still strikes me is how little we're in the west given to a more rounded interpretation of the events regarding WWII and the Soviet/Russian sacrifice that essentially stopped the Nazis. 85% of the German military casualties came from the Soviets. The Cold War in some respects was a huge propaganda push on the part of the capitalist western countries to cover up some of the more frightening truths about the National Socialist government. For instance did you know that the Nazis never even rewrote the constitution of Germany etc.? They simply called a "state of emergency" after the Reichstag fire and every four years called for it again. They existed in a crippled democratic system. This, is the main reason that Stalin went from being an isolationist to being an expansionist, because to the Soviets western democracy was directly responsible for 24 million Soviet deaths, and in a lot of respects it's hard to argue against that logic.
I think the Cold War to a degree actually lengthened the amount of time that Russia was under Soviet control by making a valid in many ways enemy for the people to fear. We could have had maybe 20 years of Soviet weirdness if we had been amicable and less violently oppositional to the Kremlin. The other day an ex head of the KGB was on TV talking about a near nuclear attack that almost happened because of faulty radar signals during a US/ european military training exercise. He was saying that one thing he didn't think the USA realized was how little the Soviets wanted a war, they, he felt had lost so much during WWII that they were more terrified we would start something than anything else.
None of this means Stalin was a great guy, but it's interesting how little credit the Soviet (Russian, Belarusian, Ukrainian etc.) people seem to be given for the huge sacrifice they made that essentially wiped out National Socialism.

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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by beats me » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:37 pm

“Interested in a career in law enforcement.” Heard that the other night and thought about how the term sounds kind of menacing, like it takes a special kind of asshole to want to spend their work week in pursuit of people breaking any and every law. Whenever the police are called to anything it’s not a good thing for at least one party involved. I don’t know why anybody would want to be exposed to that day after day. Personally I would feel nothing but resentment towards humans in a very short time period.

I fear people attracted to that. It falls a little short of the God complex some doctors have.

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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by starving student » Tue Aug 14, 2012 11:36 pm

Corporations or Government .. I'd go with Corporations being the issue, the Government is just the vessel that implements the nightmares that corporations dream up, but even though corps are the problem the solutions have to be administered to the government because the government does the governing, corporations are too huge and complicated to get at. the great thing about math is that it doesn't lie, there are many entities funneling monies to the government like the unions, individuals, special interest groups but none of them match the lobbying power of the corporations. It doesn't matter whether you think in fragmented terms such as 'pc or not pc', Liberal or conservative, right or left, or msm/fox…. the math still doesn't lie.
the biggest problem society faces is it's inability to blame someone for the problem because we want the blame to stop at agendas
it's like we are hoaxing ourselves or hosing ourselves with stupid juice. there are no agendas, there is right and wrong, there is no pc or not pc, there is treating the person standing next to you with respect or disrespect whether they be a woman or a man or a different pigmentation than you or whether they prefer vaginas or penises for recreational purposes, or whether they pray to jesus or a head of lettuce………….. none of it matters. If you know when you are being treated right or wrong, then you know when you're treating someone else right or wrong it's as simple as that, the reason we have all of these new euphemisms is so that we can distract one another and detract from the truth. it doesn't matter if fox news makes the report or msnbc makes the report, what matters is the report, it doesn't matter if republicans say it or dems say it and people know all of this but in the last 15 years we as a people have decided that the messenger is more important than the message so if someone we don't like says it then it must not be true…… ergo obama can be a muslim terrorist, alien or anything else, therefore people will vote against the very bills they authored if obama agrees with them and supports their bill.

the sad thing is that we the people allow this kind of bullshit, if any politician votes against a bill that they themselves authored they should immediately lose their job and be run out of office.

back on topic corporations or government is not a philosophical question it's a mathematical one. follow the money and the flow, corps out lobby everybody else and just because there are other entities lobbying does not mean they are all equal. the corps do the most damage by the hands of the government which they have filled with money, the rest of the lobbying going on amounts to change slipping through the fingers of the government.

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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by djadonis206 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:44 am

I'd like to point out that no one has said what it is exactly about corporations that scares them more than governments.

Government scares me more because they can imprison me for no reason and kill me without being prosecuted.

Moreover, they draft and implement laws which can restrict my freedom of speech and movement.


And before you say corps can give you cancer or steal your money, I'd like to point out it's the government's responsibility from preventing that from happening
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by justjohn_jj » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:52 am

Any question that starts with "Who are you more afraid of" is a question about emotional responses, not reasons.

Perhaps if you want reasons, you should ask a different question?
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by djadonis206 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:50 am

Good point
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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by pulsoc » Wed Aug 15, 2012 3:14 am

djadonis206 wrote:I'd like to point out that no one has said what it is exactly about corporations that scares them more than governments.

Government scares me more because they can imprison me for no reason and kill me without being prosecuted.

Moreover, they draft and implement laws which can restrict my freedom of speech and movement.


And before you say corps can give you cancer or steal your money, I'd like to point out it's the government's responsibility from preventing that from happening
You begin by asserting that governmental power terrifies you for their creation and execution of laws.

Then you suggest government is terrifying you because of their failure to create and execute laws.

Haha are you fucking kidding me?

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Re: Who are you more afraid of, the government or corporations?

Post by djadonis206 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:08 am

pulsoc wrote:
djadonis206 wrote:I'd like to point out that no one has said what it is exactly about corporations that scares them more than governments.

Government scares me more because they can imprison me for no reason and kill me without being prosecuted.

Moreover, they draft and implement laws which can restrict my freedom of speech and movement.


And before you say corps can give you cancer or steal your money, I'd like to point out it's the government's responsibility from preventing that from happening
You begin by asserting that governmental power terrifies you for their creation and execution of laws.

Then you suggest government is terrifying you because of their failure to create and execute laws.

Haha are you fucking kidding me?
Let me clarify that for you, government scares me
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