what was added and what was left out..

Discuss anything related to audio or music production.
njh
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what was added and what was left out..

Post by njh » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:06 pm

here is what i understand so far

session view automation - added
audio to midi - added
some new effects added


things left out (as far as i know)
multi monitor support - left out
osc- left out
tempo mapping - left out
program changes - left out
convolution reverb - left out (unless you count the max for live patch which im not counting here)

ttilberg
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Re: what was added and what was left out..

Post by ttilberg » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:52 pm

I'm going to fix your list a bit, how I see it:
curves to automation - added
session view automation - added
arrangement > session scene conversion - added
new, better organized browser - added
device ranking in browser - added
visual feedback in EQ8 - added
visual feedback in compression and gates - added
rhythm to midi - added
pitch and harmony to midi - added
some new effects - added
tons of new audio samples/content - added
midi reverse - added
midi doubling/halving - added
easy midi transposition - added
automatic loop exensions - added
midi automation stretching - added
Max 4 Live (based on max 6) - included
convolution reverb - included
drum synths - included
step sequencer - included
buffer shuffler - included
independent LFOs - included
envelope followers - included
multimap - included
device randomizer - included
control device midi - included
envelop generator - included


things left out (as far as i know)
multi monitor support - left out
osc- left out
I'm not sure what you mean by tempo mapping, as it can be done via scenes, midi control, and master channel automation.

Program changes can be handled via midi clips as well.

Convolution Reverb via M4L is still convolution reverb -- M4L doesn't automatically mean "inferior device" and there are many patches that come with it. Now that it's straight up included with Live 9, I think it's hard to say that functionality provided by M4L isn't included.
Tim Tilberg - Duluth, MN | SoundCloud - Arsenal
2011 13" MBP w/8GB ram | Live 9 Suite, Reason 6.5, FXPansion DCAM/Etch/Maul, Izotope Ozone 5

8O
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Re: what was added and what was left out..

Post by 8O » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:16 pm

Plus you get OSC with M4L...
Image

regretfullySaid
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Re: what was added and what was left out..

Post by regretfullySaid » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:34 pm

Program changes may be better if you look at one of the videos in the midi clip area they have it laid out more clearer.
But honestly using piz's midiconverter3 plugin is better if you want to switch through programs changes and MSB/LSB in a normal fashion compared to that horrid method proposed by dubspot.

Plus, if your midi track is receiving midi info from the piz plugin while recording then the clip will record the program changes into the clip.
ImageImage

njh
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Re: what was added and what was left out..

Post by njh » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:15 pm

ttilberg wrote:I'm going to fix your list a bit, how I see it:
curves to automation - added
session view automation - added
arrangement > session scene conversion - added
new, better organized browser - added
device ranking in browser - added
visual feedback in EQ8 - added
visual feedback in compression and gates - added
rhythm to midi - added
pitch and harmony to midi - added
some new effects - added
tons of new audio samples/content - added
midi reverse - added
midi doubling/halving - added
easy midi transposition - added
automatic loop exensions - added
midi automation stretching - added
Max 4 Live (based on max 6) - included
convolution reverb - included
drum synths - included
step sequencer - included
buffer shuffler - included
independent LFOs - included
envelope followers - included
multimap - included
device randomizer - included
control device midi - included
envelop generator - included


things left out (as far as i know)
multi monitor support - left out
osc- left out
I'm not sure what you mean by tempo mapping, as it can be done via scenes, midi control, and master channel automation.

Program changes can be handled via midi clips as well.

Convolution Reverb via M4L is still convolution reverb -- M4L doesn't automatically mean "inferior device" and there are many patches that come with it. Now that it's straight up included with Live 9, I think it's hard to say that functionality provided by M4L isn't included.
by tempo mapping i mean, mapping of the tempo :lol:
just type into youtube tempo mapping and you will see what im talking about.
have you ever used tempo mapping in live with a full track? it doesn't work without adding warping artifacts. and tempo mapping via scenes? im confused on that one.

for 4 years i have been saying live needs real tempo mapping and every time i do some one claims live already has it. live does not have real tempo mapping ability. ableton live is all about playing to the metronome not the metronome playing to you. its very annoying.

also most of the effects you name are max for live effects they are not built into ableton live they are built into max/msp so if you dont own suite you dont get the effects. this is a real half ass way to add a feature.
why not get rid of ableton live completely and just go with suite since you need it to get the full version of live.

i was skeptical of bitwig but as long as bitwig can release stable software i really see them over taking the ableton live market. on paper they have almost every feature live users have been asking for since 2004.

H20nly
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Re: what was added and what was left out..

Post by H20nly » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:18 pm

uh oh... here we go...

njh
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Re: what was added and what was left out..

Post by njh » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:19 pm

damn right here we go, some one had to say it.
:lol:

psyfi
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Location: England

Re: what was added and what was left out..

Post by psyfi » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:20 pm

I would still like a scrub tool on the transport. Something I could map to a continues controller pot such as the cue level on the APC-40. Would be especially useful when I'm working with video for post production jobs.

Didn't there use to be a thread for wishlist items? Can't find it under the now mountainous number of threads of this forum.

njh
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Re: what was added and what was left out..

Post by njh » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:21 pm

psyfi wrote:I would still like a scrub tool on the transport. Something I could map to a continues controller pot such as the cue level on the APC-40. Would be especially useful when I'm working with video for post production jobs.
dont they have that?

never mind, i was confusing a scrub tool with the jump to locator buttons.

beats me
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Re: what was added and what was left out..

Post by beats me » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:31 pm

H20nly wrote:uh oh... here we go...

I paid for an upgrade to Live 8 in 2009 and now only 4 years later I have to pay for another upgrade!!!

FUCK YOU ABLETON!!!


:x

H20nly
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Re: what was added and what was left out..

Post by H20nly » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:50 pm

njh wrote:damn right here we go, some one had to say it.
:lol:
:wink:

and on that note... i'm just a little short of being able to afford to upgrade, can you spare 300 bucks?

psyfi
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Location: England

Re: what was added and what was left out..

Post by psyfi » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:01 pm

njh wrote:
psyfi wrote:I would still like a scrub tool on the transport. Something I could map to a continues controller pot such as the cue level on the APC-40. Would be especially useful when I'm working with video for post production jobs.
dont they have that?

never mind, i was confusing a scrub tool with the jump to locator buttons.
Its no mappable transport control for this no. :(

friend_kami
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Re: what was added and what was left out..

Post by friend_kami » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:28 pm

psyfi wrote:I would still like a scrub tool on the transport. Something I could map to a continues controller pot such as the cue level on the APC-40. Would be especially useful when I'm working with video for post production jobs.
this. i've been wanting this for ages. the only way to even be able to scrub through video is by deactivating the grid completely and move the cursor with the arrow keys, otherwise it snaps to 0.1.0 beats of a bar (good luck syncing frames with that heh), and that's only cursor scrubbing with no audio preview scrubbing at all.

incredibly annoying to say the least.

ttilberg
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Re: what was added and what was left out..

Post by ttilberg » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:53 pm

NJH,

Being that you've said you've posting about it for years, I can't argue that Live doesn't provide what you are looking for -- It's hard to know what level someone's on. And with all the complaining about what Live 9 doesn't provide, I feel a little defensive overall, as Ableton really has no obligation to do anything, just as us consumers have no obligation to upgrade -- but that's another story!

Regarding the tempo mapping: after looking it up in Youtube, the process definitely looks more intuitive in Logic... That said, doesn't warping a clip + setting it as the "Master" do the same thing? Honestly, I haven't used it much, so I can't talk to the artifacts/etc -- but after some quick testing just now, it appears to do the same thing: Take your recorded audio, make sure the transients are marked correctly (warped), and set it to master -- My Live set now follows the tempo of whatever I recorded.

Regarding the artifacts, I think I can see how a file that is not warped exactly could be more problematic, as Live forces the clip to be warped in order to Live to follow it's tempo, which means if it's not warped well, the intermediate tempo changes could create artifacts. I don't really know how Logic handles it, as I don't have any experience in Logic at all.

Regarding mapping tempo to scenes, if you name a scene a tempo, your live set changes to that tempo when triggered -- not what you are referring to after youtubing it, but I wanted to point it out since you didn't seem to know about it. It's a cool trick to know when performing live.

Regarding the effects I named -- at this point, what difference does it make if the effects are built directly into Live, or Max patches? Live now includes Max, so functionality that Max provides is functionality you get from Live -- the effects listed are patches that come pre-loaded with Live, therefor I think we'll have to agree to disagree whether or not Live 9 Suite includes a convolution reverb or not.

Regarding "If you don't own suite you don't get the effects" I don't see why it should be any different than this. Different users use Live for different things, if they don't need the extra functionality that the Suite offers, then they don't need to get it. But if you want the full nuts version of Live, then Suite it is.


I strongly feel that Ableton has done a bang up job with the feature list for this release and look forward to using it when it is released. If the improvements aren't for you, then I guess that's okay. I for one think $300 for the new features is a steal, considering the costs of other pro-audio stuff, especially plugins.
Tim Tilberg - Duluth, MN | SoundCloud - Arsenal
2011 13" MBP w/8GB ram | Live 9 Suite, Reason 6.5, FXPansion DCAM/Etch/Maul, Izotope Ozone 5

njh
Posts: 484
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Re: what was added and what was left out..

Post by njh » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:19 pm

yeah what you were referring to within session view is something i have been aware of for a while, this is just creating a tempo change or time sig change if you want to do that also.
since you watched the video of what logic does then you should have a better understanding of what tempo mapping is (logic is kind of a pain for this though).

basically you would need tempo mapping when you are playing a piece without using a metronome. playing without a metronome is done in classical music all the time and used to be done very often in rock. it allows you to record a piece and then warp the grid to the music instead of warping the music to the grid and then you can add other pieces of music and the metronome and grid will follow the original piece. this is an great feature if you are recording a real instrument and you want to add midi later. sometimes you just can not get the same feel when recording to a metronome as you can recording freely.

as for the effects, i hate saying agree to disagree but i guess that what we are doing.. ( i disagree with you so, i am agreeing with you that i dont agree, and you are agreeing with me that you disagree with me, but you also agree that we dont agree, and i agree with that... what a mind fuck).

as for the other features. yeah session view automation will be nice, built in audio to midi might be ok. note reverse should have been there a long time ago but its nice to see its there now.

idk besides lives interface looking better, im just not seeing how they are going to compete with bitwig.

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