Gun control? We need medication control!!!!!

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artpunk
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Re: Shooting = gun problem or sociological problem?

Post by artpunk » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:05 pm

vivo wrote:While I don't own a gun, I believe in the right to bear arms.
- WHY? This attitude is something that I will never understand. Some things should not be seen as 'a right'
It is a sad misconceptions, one that perpetuates a whole society living in fear that these tragedies could occur again at anytime.

- in the name of all that is sane and logical, and given those statistics - don't you think there needs to be some sort of control? Or are all of the individuals who believe in the right to bear arms able to accept more of these incidents occuring?
All this talk about medications may have some validity, but without guns, the damage any of these broken minds could do would be minimised.
This talk of medication control is a red herring, perhaps a panacea for those who despite their strong beliefs, deep down might start to be seeing the gun-control lobby might actually have a point.

:|

“... it was just to make an average listener go: ‘What the fuck is this?’ That’s a real inspiration for me and something that I will explore more on upcoming recordings.”
- Wally De Backer (Gotye) quoting Ween's intention behind making records

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Re: Gun control? We need medication control!!!!!

Post by Vivo » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:16 pm

funken wrote:
Vivo wrote:http://www.naturalnews.com/038353_gun_c ... Lanza.html

I'd bet money this kid was on Prozac, Ritalin or some other prescription drug that caused him to go mad.

Bottom line, some people can successfully digest these drugs and for them the drug works.

However, some people can not and for them they go completely insane.
But come on, please. Think of the profits of the pharmaceutical multinationals. They might suffer if you stop drugging children left right and centre.
LOL, I don't know how it is in the UK but here in the States most of the commercials during the nightly news cast are from pharmaceutical companies. They are ridiculously powerful.

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Re: Shooting = gun problem or sociological problem?

Post by Vivo » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:25 pm

artpunk wrote:
vivo wrote:While I don't own a gun, I believe in the right to bear arms.
- WHY? This attitude is something that I will never understand. Some things should not be seen as 'a right'
It is a sad misconceptions, one that perpetuates a whole society living in fear that these tragedies could occur again at anytime.

- in the name of all that is sane and logical, and given those statistics - don't you think there needs to be some sort of control? Or are all of the individuals who believe in the right to bear arms able to accept more of these incidents occuring?
All this talk about medications may have some validity, but without guns, the damage any of these broken minds could do would be minimised.
This talk of medication control is a red herring, perhaps a panacea for those who despite their strong beliefs, deep down might start to be seeing the gun-control lobby might actually have a point.

:|
Why? there are so many Thomas Jefferson quotes, I'll provide a link. Such a wise man.

http://jpetrie.myweb.uga.edu/TJ.html

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

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Re: Gun control? We need medication control!!!!!

Post by artpunk » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:27 pm

Vivo wrote: LOL, I don't know how it is in the UK but here in the States most of the commercials during the nightly news cast are from pharmaceutical companies. They are ridiculously powerful.
...as is the gun lobby.

“... it was just to make an average listener go: ‘What the fuck is this?’ That’s a real inspiration for me and something that I will explore more on upcoming recordings.”
- Wally De Backer (Gotye) quoting Ween's intention behind making records

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Re: Shooting = gun problem or sociological problem?

Post by artpunk » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:31 pm

Vivo wrote:
artpunk wrote:
vivo wrote:While I don't own a gun, I believe in the right to bear arms.
- WHY? This attitude is something that I will never understand. Some things should not be seen as 'a right'
It is a sad misconceptions, one that perpetuates a whole society living in fear that these tragedies could occur again at anytime.

- in the name of all that is sane and logical, and given those statistics - don't you think there needs to be some sort of control? Or are all of the individuals who believe in the right to bear arms able to accept more of these incidents occuring?
All this talk about medications may have some validity, but without guns, the damage any of these broken minds could do would be minimised.
This talk of medication control is a red herring, perhaps a panacea for those who despite their strong beliefs, deep down might start to be seeing the gun-control lobby might actually have a point.

:|
Why? there are so many Thomas Jefferson quotes, I'll provide a link. Such a wise man.

http://jpetrie.myweb.uga.edu/TJ.html

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Such a wise man who perhaps could not foresee that the very rights he espoused would lead to circumstances such as what happened last week. This 'last resort' is turning your country into a recurring nightmare.
DID YOU LOOK AT THOSE STATISTICS?
You did not address my other questions btw, something that is significant in it's avoidance.

“... it was just to make an average listener go: ‘What the fuck is this?’ That’s a real inspiration for me and something that I will explore more on upcoming recordings.”
- Wally De Backer (Gotye) quoting Ween's intention behind making records

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Re: Shooting = gun problem or sociological problem?

Post by Vivo » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:54 pm

Such a wise man who perhaps could not foresee that the very rights he espoused would lead to circumstances such as what happened last week. This 'last resort' is turning your country into a recurring nightmare.
DID YOU LOOK AT THOSE STATISTICS?
You did not address my other questions btw, something that is significant in it's avoidance.[/quote]

It's not the guns it's the drugs. Yes, I believe if you are taking a psychotropic drug you should not be allowed to purchase a firearm.

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Re: Shooting = gun problem or sociological problem?

Post by fishmonkey » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:43 pm

Vivo wrote:
fishmonkey wrote:dichotomous thinking, good or bad?
Everyone is missing the point. It's not a gun or a sociological problem. It's a drug problem.

Read the articles I've posted in this thread.
now you've played out your hand, i don't think i'm missing your point at all. should i have said trichotomy instead?

the killings are humans + culture + guns + drugs in various measures. there is no simple answer, so no, medication control will not stop the violence. i agree that the drug companies are out of control, especially in the US. but then from the outside American culture is gluttonous for everything.

not so long ago, many many more people were locked up in asylums. then new medications made it easier to have most of those people out in the community. would there be more or less issues without medication? i don't know the answer to that one. should we go back to locking unstable people up again?

either way, the right to bear military arms is idiotic.

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Re: Shooting = gun problem or sociological problem?

Post by Sage » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:46 pm

Vivo wrote:
Sage wrote:
Vivo wrote:http://cegant.com/commentary/school-sho ... tric-drugs

School Violence

The following are reports of teens committing acts of school violence during an 18 year period from 1988-2006 (footnote 3), beginning only one year after the first SSRI antidepressant was approved for the U.S. market for adult use only. More than half of the teens committing these acts were taking SSRI antidepressants.

1988
1. September 26, 1988, South Carolina: James Wilson, 19, went on a shooting spree in an elementary schoolyard in Greenwood, killing two 8 year olds, and wounding 7 other children and 2 teachers. He was taking Xanax and for the eight months prior to the shooting had been taking several psychiatric drugs.

1997
2. October 1, 1997, Pearl, Mississippi: Luke Woodham, 16, shot two students to death and wounded seven others after beating and stabbing his mother to death. Public reports say the boy was taking Prozac.
3. December 1, 1997, West Paducah, Kentucky: 14-year-old Michael Carneal was on Ritalin, when he started firing a gun during a prayer meeting at a high school, killing three teens aged 14 to 17, and wounding five other students, including one who is paralyzed.

1998
4. March 1998, Arkansas: Andrew Golden, 11, and cousin Mitchell Johnson, 13, went on a shooting spree at Westside Middle School in Arkansas, killing four students and one teacher. Nine students and a teacher were also wounded. In a review of the book Teenage Rampage: The Worldwide Youth Phenomenon, both boys were reported to be taking Ritalin.
5. May 21, 1998, Oregon: 15-year-old Kip Kinkel murdered his parents and then proceeded to school where he opened fire on students in the cafeteria, killing two and wounding 22. Kinkel had been taking Prozac and an amphetamine.
6. Pocatello, Idaho: An unnamed 14 year old held 5 classmates hostage with a gun. He surrendered to the police and fortunately no one was hurt. He was taking Zoloft.

1999
7. April 16, 1999, Idaho: 15-year-old Shawn Cooper fired two shotgun rounds in his school, narrowly missing students. He was taking a prescribed SSRI antidepressant and Ritalin.
8. April 29, 1999, Taber, Alberta: An unnamed 14-year-old student from W.R. Myers High School shot two students, killing one. He began taking prescribed Dexedrine immediately prior to the shooting.
9. April 20, 1999, Colorado: 18-year-old Eric Harris, the ringleader in the Columbine massacre was taking Luvox that the coroner confirmed was in his system through toxicology reports. He and his co-shooter, Dylan Klebold killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 23 others before killing themselves.
10. May 20, 1999, Georgia: 15-year-old T.J. Solomon was being treated with Ritalin when he opened fire on and wounded six of his classmates.
11. December 6, 1999, Fort Gibson, Oklahoma: 13-year-old Seth Trickey fired at least 15 shots at Fort Gibson Middle School wounding four classmates. He was undergoing psychological counseling and was probably being medicated, although those records are sealed.

2000
12. March 7, 2000, Williamsport, Pennsylvania: Elizabeth Bush, 14, was taking Prozac when she shot at fellow students, wounding one.

2001
13. January 10, 2001, Oxnard, California: A 17-year-old gunman fired shots at Hueneme High School before taking a female student hostage. He was later shot and killed by police. Prior to the shooting he had been treated for mental illness and was probably taking psychiatric drugs.
14. March 22, 2001, California: 18-year-old Jason Hoffman opened fire on his classmates, wounding three students and two teachers at Granite Hills High School. He had been prescribed the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor.
15. April 2001, Washington State: 16-year-old Cory Baadsgaard took a rifle to his high school and took 23 classmates and a teacher hostage. According to another student, “Cory was yelling and then he just stopped, looked down at the gun in his hand and woke up.” Fortunately, no one was hurt. Cory had been taking Effexor and had no memory of the incident.

2003
16. January 2003, Elliot City, Maryland: Ryan T. Furlough, 19, killed a Centennial High School classmate by spiking his soda with cyanide. He was being treated with Effexor.

2004
17. February 2004, Greenbush, New York: 16-year-old, Jon Romano strolled into Columbia high school in east Greenbush and opened fire with a shotgun. Special education teacher Michael Bennett was hit in the leg. The boy was treated with medication for depression.

2005
18. March, 2005, Minnesota: Jeff Weise, 16, shot dead his grandparents, then went to his school on the Red Lake Indian Reservation where he shot dead 8 students and a teacher, and wounded 7 before killing himself. He was taking Prozac.
19. November 8, 2005, Jacksboro, Tennessee: Kenneth Bartley, a student in high school shot and killed an assistant principal. The principal and another assistant principal were wounded. He had previously spent about a year and a half in a residential juvenile treatment program, where he was likely prescribed psychiatric drugs.

2006
20. August 30, 2006, Hillsborough, North Carolina: Alvaro Castillo, 19, killed his father, then opened fire at Orange High School, wounding two students before surrendering to police. He had been involuntarily treated in a state psychiatric hospital, and such commitment nearly always involves drugs.
21. October 10, 2006, Charleston, South Carolina: Tyrell Glover, 19, took an air rifle to Burke High School where he planned to hold students hostage and be gunned down by police. He had been taking an antidepressant for several years but his mother took him off the drug when she saw the listed side effects in ads. However, Tyrell began taking Prozac again for approximately six months. Whether he was taking a psychiatric drug or withdrawing from it at the time of this hostage/suicide plan is yet to be confirmed.

The number of drug-related school shootings are dwarfed by the number of non-school-related violent events associated with psychiatric medication use. Many school shooting cases have had their court documents sealed, especially if minors are involved, and the extent of the chemical use is often never revealed. The psychiatric drug-related violence noted in the cases above was discovered mostly by reporters who dug up the data, usually reporting it as an “incidental” finding!

Thomas Lane did not go to Chardon High, instead attending nearby Lake Academy, which is for students with academic or behavioral problems, making it extremely unlikely that he was not being medicated with psychiatric drugs. But we may never know if his records are sealed too, which I suspect often happens due to pressure from Big Pharma or from those politically positioned to benefit from the pharmaceutical companies money.
All happened in the USA and all the drugs mentioned are taken by people all over the world. So your theory is flawed.
It's all over the world. Google is your friend.

April 22, 2004: The European Agency for the Evaluation of Medicinal Products issued a press
release to the press and public. In this press release, they report that, according to clinical trials, Paroxetine (Paxil) containing medicines can cause suicidal behavior and hostility in children. It recommends that Paroxetine not be used in children and recommends that young adults be observed carefully for signs and symptoms of suicidal behavior or hostility.

July 2003: Health Canada’s Health Products and Food Branch warned health care professionals,
“Until further information is available, Paxil should not be used in…pediatric patients…due to a possible increased risk of suicide-related adverse events in this patient population.”
Further, incidents of suicidal thoughts and self-harm were nearly twice as high on Paxil as on placebo (5.3% vs. 2.8%).ii

September 21 2004: The British Healthcare Products Regulatory Authority advised that it had
issued guidelines that children should not be given most SSRI antidepressants because of clinical trial data showing an increased rate of harmful outcomes, including hostility.vii

December 2004: The Australian Therapeutic Goods Administration published an Adverse Drug
Reactions Bulletin recommending that any use of SSRIs in children and adolescents should be
carefully monitored for the emergence of suicidal ideation. In a recent study involving Prozac, it said, there was an increase in adverse psychiatric events of suicide, self-harm, aggression and violence.viii

May 2009: JAPANESE SSRI WARNING. The Japanese Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare
investigated news reports of antidepressant users "who developed increased feelings of hostility or anxiety, and have even committed sudden acts of violence against others." After its investigation, the Ministry decided to revise the label warnings on SSRI antidepressant stating, "There are cases where we cannot rule out a causal relationship [of hostility, anxiety, and sudden acts of violence] with the medication." xxi

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=ca ... MOnhq3Mg4A
You clearly missed the point I was making here.

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Re: Shooting = gun problem or sociological problem?

Post by Vivo » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:56 am

fishmonkey wrote:
Vivo wrote:
fishmonkey wrote:dichotomous thinking, good or bad?
Everyone is missing the point. It's not a gun or a sociological problem. It's a drug problem.

Read the articles I've posted in this thread.
now you've played out your hand, i don't think i'm missing your point at all. should i have said trichotomy instead?

the killings are humans + culture + guns + drugs in various measures. there is no simple answer, so no, medication control will not stop the violence. i agree that the drug companies are out of control, especially in the US. but then from the outside American culture is gluttonous for everything.

not so long ago, many many more people were locked up in asylums. then new medications made it easier to have most of those people out in the community. would there be more or less issues without medication? i don't know the answer to that one. should we go back to locking unstable people up again?

either way, the right to bear military arms is idiotic.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/1 ... ive-drunk/

Nearly 11,000 deaths related to alcohol-impaired driving still occur each year in the United States;therefore, we should get rid of all the cars!

Of course not, the car is not the problem. The drug alcohol is the problem.

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Re: Gun control? We need medication control!!!!!

Post by nathannn » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:22 am

Am I the only person who notices more vehicle deaths happen each year involving people not under the influence.

We dont need to get rid of people on meds Im willing to bet the president takes some sort of anxiety medication once in a while.
We need gun control!

And to the whole worthless argument of "guns dont kill people, people kill people" well no shit that's the point! people kill people so why let people have weapons that are designed to kill as easily as guns. You want to hunt? Use a bow and arrow.

And you people that believe in the right to bear arms,... what about the right to own a pipe bomb? or the right to own c4, nerve gas, scud missiles ..do you need that shit to protect yourselves also?



I do understand however that America is an extremely violent country and there are people who own guns becuase their houses are broken into and they live in fear because of violent assholes with guns. I have sympathy for these people, they are in a shity situation and they need guns because real gun control laws have not been in place and enforced.
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Re: Shooting = gun problem or sociological problem?

Post by artpunk » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:40 am

Vivo wrote: It's not the guns it's the drugs. Yes, I believe if you are taking a psychotropic drug you should not be allowed to purchase a firearm.
The problem with your last statement is that the perpetrator of last weeks atrocity didn't purchase the weapons used, his Mother did. It's about how easy anyone can access guns too.
If you truly believe that guns play no part in these equations (once again DID YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT THOSE STATISTICS???) then you are living in a special world of denial. What I fear, for you & your fellow countrymen is that there are so many just like you.

“... it was just to make an average listener go: ‘What the fuck is this?’ That’s a real inspiration for me and something that I will explore more on upcoming recordings.”
- Wally De Backer (Gotye) quoting Ween's intention behind making records

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Re: Shooting = gun problem or sociological problem?

Post by fishmonkey » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:37 am

Vivo wrote: Nearly 11,000 deaths related to alcohol-impaired driving still occur each year in the United States;therefore, we should get rid of all the cars!

Of course not, the car is not the problem. The drug alcohol is the problem.
death defyingly stupid logic.

cars serve a myriad of functions apart from killing people. what function do weapons serve? they exist to maim and kill. that is their intrinsic purpose and meaning.

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Re: Gun control? We need medication control!!!!!

Post by artpunk » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:39 am

fishmonkey makes a very good point. I am stupefied as to why the intrinsic logic of the situation is being ignored by protagonists of the gun culture...


Another point of interest in relation to Australia's own history related to these kind of events is that when we did have mass shootings it was during a time when medications such as Prozac were not in as common use as they are today (Fluoxetine was introduced in 1990 to Australia's pharmacopoeia)

(Below is from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation News Site)

US urged to consider Australia's gun laws example
Mon 17 Dec 12, 10:13am AEDT
By Michael Vincent, staff

A former head of Australia's anti-gun coalition says US president Barack Obama should use his status as a two-term president to push gun reforms through Congress. There are growing calls for action on gun control after the slaughter of 20 young children and six of their teachers at a Connecticut school on Friday. As the US once again struggles with the issue of gun control, the success of John Howard's 1996 laws banning semi-automatic weapons in Australia has been raised in the American debate. The New York Times has referred to Australia's gun laws as a "road map" for the US, saying that "in the 18 years before the laws, Australia suffered 13 mass shootings" - but has suffered none since ...

to read the full story on your mobile please use this link
http://m.abc.net.au/browse?page=11144&a ... 31262&cat=

to read the full story on a PC or Mac please use this link
http://www.abc.net.au/news/4431262

“... it was just to make an average listener go: ‘What the fuck is this?’ That’s a real inspiration for me and something that I will explore more on upcoming recordings.”
- Wally De Backer (Gotye) quoting Ween's intention behind making records

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Re: Shooting = gun problem or sociological problem?

Post by Forge. » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:16 am

Vivo wrote:
artpunk wrote:
vivo wrote:While I don't own a gun, I believe in the right to bear arms.
- WHY? This attitude is something that I will never understand. Some things should not be seen as 'a right'
It is a sad misconceptions, one that perpetuates a whole society living in fear that these tragedies could occur again at anytime.

- in the name of all that is sane and logical, and given those statistics - don't you think there needs to be some sort of control? Or are all of the individuals who believe in the right to bear arms able to accept more of these incidents occuring?
All this talk about medications may have some validity, but without guns, the damage any of these broken minds could do would be minimised.
This talk of medication control is a red herring, perhaps a panacea for those who despite their strong beliefs, deep down might start to be seeing the gun-control lobby might actually have a point.

:|
Why? there are so many Thomas Jefferson quotes, I'll provide a link. Such a wise man.

http://jpetrie.myweb.uga.edu/TJ.html

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
well then you just have to accept the consequences. Simple as that really. Those statistics are massively out of whack and it is a direct result. In fact use the UK as an example. The UK has the highest rates of depression and anti-depressant use in Europe, and I think as per capita it's kind of on par with the US. And look at the number difference. It was something like 8 - so even if you multiply the 60 million population by 5 to equal the us, that;s 40 people compared to 10, 000.... that's just totally insane.

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Re: Shooting = gun problem or sociological problem?

Post by artpunk » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:41 am

Forge. wrote:well then you just have to accept the consequences. Simple as that really. Those statistics are massively out of whack and it is a direct result. In fact use the UK as an example. The UK has the highest rates of depression and anti-depressant use in Europe, and I think as per capita it's kind of on par with the US. And look at the number difference. It was something like 8 - so even if you multiply the 60 million population by 5 to equal the us, that;s 40 people compared to 10, 000.... that's just totally insane.
Sad but true... it is a shame that innocent children have to be the victim of a nations blind adherence to this misguided and rather paranoid right however...
and speaking of this right and the reason Vivo gives as the best rationale for it -
Vivo wrote: The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
How exactly does anyone envisage that actually working if the scenario actually came about? Like how it's working in Syria? Good luck with that one... :cry:

“... it was just to make an average listener go: ‘What the fuck is this?’ That’s a real inspiration for me and something that I will explore more on upcoming recordings.”
- Wally De Backer (Gotye) quoting Ween's intention behind making records

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