Giving up drugs - it's easy!

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d.reamonn
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Re: Giving up drugs - it's easy!

Post by d.reamonn » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:41 pm

funken wrote:Define alcoholic and addict.
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Mint Invader
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Re: Giving up drugs - it's easy!

Post by Mint Invader » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:18 pm

My surgeon once told me cocaine is less addictive than nicotine... I have happily kicked one of these 2 habits.
Because Whatever.

Mint Invader
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Re: Giving up drugs - it's easy!

Post by Mint Invader » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:24 pm

keeping ya guessing since 1990
Because Whatever.

cmcpress
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Re: Giving up drugs - it's easy!

Post by cmcpress » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:38 pm

funken wrote:
Why is it pertinant?
pertinent. (spelling)

If you're making claims then your experience with these claims is relevant as to their basis and validity.
Last edited by cmcpress on Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cmcpress
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Re: Giving up drugs - it's easy!

Post by cmcpress » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:46 pm

funken wrote:
cmcpress wrote:
funken wrote:Define alcoholic and addict.
That's something you should be doing as it's your contention.
Yes, perhaps I should, but you asked a question so I asked you to define the terms within it.
This wasn't a question-adrift though. It was in the context of your initial contention.

funken wrote:
cmcpress wrote: But I'll play. I'm assuming of course that you want to carry on in the spirit of a debate and not get lost in semantics ;)
But on the other hand definitions are important.
Indeed they are. The burden is on you to provide those definitions.

funken wrote:What differentiates an alcoholic from a normal drinker?
Good question - define an alcoholic and then we can see.
funken wrote:
cmcpress wrote: I would define it as someone with a habitual, psychological or physical dependence on and abuse of alcohol (in the case of an alcoholic) or any other substance or behaviour (in the case of an addict). Specifically, but also not exclusively, (and this is extending the definition into a social sphere) where that dependence or abuse is harmful to themselves or others around them or prevents normal functioning (such as in the case of OCD or obsessive phobias).

What's your definition?
Well, you could argue that most people who drink are alcoholics, they just vary in degree.
Possibly. However for that statement to be valid it would have to fulfill the criteria of "dependence". Which I'm not sure regular drinkers would.

funken wrote: Or is there a dialectical point at which quantity transforms into quality, like heating water until it suddenly turns into steam?

Alcoholics presumably started as 'normal drinkers'. Which day in their lives did they transform into alcoholics?
If we're using my definition of Alcoholism, when they become dependent on it.

Mint Invader
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Re: Giving up drugs - it's easy!

Post by Mint Invader » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:51 pm

funken wrote:
Mint Invader wrote:keeping ya guessing since 1990
ok fair enough, I won't pry. It just thought you wanted us to guess. Most doctors say giving up smoking is extremely difficult. They are wrong, and are not helping.

I actually know someone who advises the UK government on this, and they probably think the same. Bit out of touch now as they've moved away. It's amazing anyone manages to give up.
Hint, I breathe easier now.
Because Whatever.

cmcpress
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Re: Giving up drugs - it's easy!

Post by cmcpress » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:04 pm

funken wrote:
cmcpress wrote:
funken wrote:
Why is it pertinant?
pertinent. (spelling)

If you're making claims then your experience with these claims is relevant as to their basis and validity.
Allen Carr's books and clinics have helped millions of people quit smoking/alcohol/etc. They do clinics for heroin/crack cocaine etc. They offer a money-back guarantee.
1. Are you Allen Carr?

2. A money back guarantee isn't necessarily proof of it's effectiveness in treating addiction as there is no "guarantee" that people will request this should they fail. Anecdotally everyone I know who has read Allen carr has relapsed into smoking, myself included. None of these have requested money back on their books. People sometimes will not request the money back as they see it as a personal failure, rather than a failure of the system they were undertaking.
funken wrote:Personally I have only been addicted to cigarettes, weed and alcohol. I do know or have known people who have given up heroin and other hard drugs though.
Again, we don't have a definition for addiction. Was your use habitual with dependence? Would you have socially transgressed if you were without cigarettes, weed or alcohol?

Did you have physical withdrawal symptoms? And how extreme were they?

Did they include DT's? Hallucinations? Ants under your skin? Raised heartbeat? Nausea? Vomiting? Palpitations? Fear? Depression? Anxiety? Panic Attacks? Confusion? Derealisation? Severe Memory Loss? Diarrhea? Psychosis?
Last edited by cmcpress on Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cmcpress
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Re: Giving up drugs - it's easy!

Post by cmcpress » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:14 pm

funken wrote:Whether or not there is a terrible day on which they become alcoholics, it's clear that not everything happened on this day. They must have been close to alchoholism the day before, yes?
I don't think that kind of extreme, genuine addiction is a binary on/off switch but something that happens over a period of time and the severity of the dependence, and consequences of withdrawal increase with exposure to the substance.

William Burroughs said that in order to become a true heroin addict with a physical dependence you needed to use constantly, ie several times daily for a period of 18 months.

cmcpress
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Re: Giving up drugs - it's easy!

Post by cmcpress » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:19 pm

funken wrote:How many of them tried to stop smoking nicotine, but continued to smoke weed?
None. Not everyone lives in a student bubble.
funken wrote:You should know from reading Allen Carr that most of these symptoms are created by the mind, and if you follow his method you will not experience them.

I was on just under 1/2 a 700ml bottle of whisky a day, and felt no withdrawal symptoms except slight insomnia.

I felt non from giving up smoking except mild irritability for a few days. I have not had a cig in 3 years and can't imagine ever having one. I never crave for one.

I smoked weed every day for 20 years and experienced no withdrawal symptoms.
Weed is not classed as anything other than psychologically addictive. There is no physical component. Alcohol and Nicotine do, though. I would suggest that if that was the extent of your withdrawal symptoms that you're addictions were mild.

Sorry chap, just not rock and roll enough.

cmcpress
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Re: Giving up drugs - it's easy!

Post by cmcpress » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:26 pm

funken wrote:You should know from reading Allen Carr that most of these symptoms are created by the mind, and if you follow his method you will not experience them.
Nope - this is the distinction between a mild addiction like Nicotine, and a serious addiction like Heroin. Physical addiction is chemical dependence it's of an entire other order.
funken wrote:I was on just under 1/2 a 700ml bottle of whisky a day, and felt no withdrawal symptoms except slight insomnia.
That's not actually a lot of whisky, believe it or not. I know guys who would regularly down 2L of the stuff a day - starting first thing in the morning. When their money ran out they would drink bottles of white cider and not eat. Their entire calorie count would come from alcohol. Most of them couldn't even eat food if they wanted.

I know one guy who would go out for a night, down 8-10 pints of lager and then come home where he would really start drinking.
funken wrote:I felt non from giving up smoking except mild irritability for a few days. I have not had a cig in 3 years and can't imagine ever having one. I never crave for one.
You and me, both. Not everyone is the same. I gave up Dec 2011 - haven't had one since. Suffered about 2 weeks of mildly wanting a cig but nothing since. That's not addiction.
funken wrote:I smoked weed every day for 20 years and experienced no withdrawal symptoms.


Again, Weed does not create a physical dependence. I stopped smoking weed in 1998. Mainly because it became boring.

cmcpress
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Re: Giving up drugs - it's easy!

Post by cmcpress » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:40 pm

funken wrote:Cannabis acts on the same brain receptors and reward pathways as alcohol and nicotine.
Who told you that? It's not true.

Cannabis works on receptors called - wait for it! - Cannabinonoid receptors.

Nicotine acts on the nicotinic acetylcholine receptors

Alcohol is a poison that inhibits communication between cells. Entirely different mechanisms.

Even if they did act on the same, or similar pathways and receptors their different chemical makeup means that they would be processed by the body in entirely different ways.
funken wrote:If my addictions were mild, why could I not stop them for decades? I smoked cigs for 34 years!
I don't know is the short answer. It probably depends on your nature, genetic makeup, how much you took, your natural tolerance, body size, metabolism and so on. I'm not saying Psychology is not a factor because it is. But in the rainbow of addiction you were clearly low down.

d.reamonn
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Re: Giving up drugs - it's easy!

Post by d.reamonn » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:50 pm

funken wrote:
cmcpress wrote:
funken wrote:You should know from reading Allen Carr that most of these symptoms are created by the mind, and if you follow his method you will not experience them.

I was on just under 1/2 a 700ml bottle of whisky a day, and felt no withdrawal symptoms except slight insomnia.

I felt non from giving up smoking except mild irritability for a few days. I have not had a cig in 3 years and can't imagine ever having one. I never crave for one.

I smoked weed every day for 20 years and experienced no withdrawal symptoms.
Weed is not classed as anything other than psychologically addictive. There is no physical component. Alcohol and Nicotine do, though. I would suggest that if that was the extent of your withdrawal symptoms that you're addictions were mild.

Sorry chap, just not rock and roll enough.
Cannabis acts on the same brain receptors and reward pathways as alcohol and nicotine.

If my addictions were mild, why could I not stop them for decades? I smoked cigs for 34 years!
Because you rack disciprine.
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"I wanted to not like your [music], but it's actually pretty awesome. Banana hammock."
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Re: Giving up drugs - it's easy!

Post by Forge. » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:54 pm

jesus funken, the sig has made the thread impossible for me.

doc holiday
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Re: Giving up drugs - it's easy!

Post by doc holiday » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:57 pm

funken wrote:cannabis .... They all act on the same brain receptors and reward pathways in fact. People find them hard to give up, they kill people.

stop lying, and no it's never killed anyone and while there are some garbage cannabinoid clones out there cannabis doesn't effect the brain in the same manner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_receptor

cmcpress
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Re: Giving up drugs - it's easy!

Post by cmcpress » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:05 pm

funken wrote:
cmcpress wrote:
funken wrote:You should know from reading Allen Carr that most of these symptoms are created by the mind, and if you follow his method you will not experience them.
Nope - this is the distinction between a mild addiction like Nicotine, and a serious addiction like Heroin. Physical addiction is chemical dependence it's of an entire other order.
So explain why heroin addicts tell him it's been easier to give up heroin than nicotine?
Well the obvious answer is it's anecdotal / apocryphal first of all.

Secondly it's a nice sounding soundbite to sell books.

I expect the kind of people who can afford to go to an Allen Carr clinic aren't the same ones sucking people off for a fix in a dark Alley.

It depends on the extent of their addiction.
funken wrote:It is quite a lot. It is about 12 units per day. People who are not used to it can die from little more than that. For someone who does not drink regularly, 30 units would put them in hospital.


Like all things it's relative. I'm merely suggesting that you weren't physically dependent to the extent that it caused severe withdrawal symptoms.

funken wrote:You said Allen Carr's book did not cure you. Now you say you stopped easily.
The two things don't contradict each other. I don't make any claims to having been a cigarette addict. I read Allen Carr 7/8 years ago approx, tried to give up, didn't. Finally gave up of my own volition in Dec 2011. The biggest factor in me giving up was I stopped socialising with friends who smoked. I attribute the success of my not smoking to that.
funken wrote:Weed acts on the same bits of the brain as heroin. The physical withdrawal symptoms for heroin are largely psychologically created.
Heroin and Weed do not act on exactly the same parts of the brain. Heroin acts on Opioid Receptors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_receptor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_receptor

Again, my original statement stands that even if two drugs acted on the same pathways this does not mean that their toxicity, way they are processed or any other aspects would be the same or that the substance would have the same chances of creating a physical dependence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_dependence

My contention, counter to your argument is that there is a difference between psychological and physical dependence, although an addiction may have elements of both.

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