Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production
Emissary
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Re: Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Post by Emissary » Wed May 22, 2013 4:24 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
Jack McOck wrote: I'm in favor of this. Everything the government runs is cheaper and more efficient. And the idea that an individual should be allowed to start his own business is horrible. Tarekith, from now on, all decisions regarding your mastering service must be put to a vote.
Congratulations, you're catching on. I'm not going to comment on Tarekith, whoever he is.

However you have to bear in mind that the goal of socialism is NO GOVERNMENT. But state involvement is needed at the start for 2 obvious reasons.

1. Because some capitalists will fight back and attempt sabotage etc.

2. Because you need to have an integrated system. Take electricity for instance. It was privatised in the UK by Thatcher I think. Now I can buy my electricity from several different companies. It's still the same electricity! It doesn't matter who I buy it off, it's the same leccy coming down the same wires from the same power station. The privatisation thing brought us one big benefit. The huge bonus that is thousands of people employed to do the vital and productive job of phoning you up to see if you want to change which company you pay this exact same electricity from. It's no cheaper, no better. It must be a lot less efficient becaus most of their staff do these useless unproductive sales jobs. You can't justify it. Nobody can. It's a joke. A joke on us.
How can you argue with this brain, you're just replacing one corrupt system with an even more corrupt and totalitarian system. I take it you never worked in the public sector, it's stupidly inefficient. Hopefully we'll privatise the NHS next, because that's collapsing due to the inefficiency of government too. Seriously I have worked in both, and the private sector is mostly a joy to work in, free people exchanging goods with a smile. The public sector is endless meetings about meetings about meetings, no work ever gets done, but everyone is tired and pissed off and carping behind each others back. The idea of a whole country doing this doesn't bare thinking about. The fact that you already think the use of force to get what you want is acceptable disqualifies you from making any more statements. You're a tyrant and tyrants always lose in the end.

Emissary
Posts: 2431
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:27 am

Re: Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Post by Emissary » Wed May 22, 2013 4:28 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
Emissary wrote:
Central planning doesn't work, it's been proven a several massive scales,
But not is a socialist economy
Emissary wrote: lets not even get into the economic calculation problem that occurs without a price mechanism.
No, let's not
Emissary wrote: anarcho capitalism has never been tried on a large scale
There is no such thing
Emissary wrote: so we should at least give it a chance sometime.
The capitalists are in power. If they wanted more 'anarcho' they would have it. But it is incorrect to use that word, incorrect to think it could ever happen, beauce there is nothing stopping it happening now. Except one thing. It's a stupid idea.
but not is a socialist economy doesn't make sense.

wow a central planner ignoring the economic calculation problem as if it doesn't matter

there is no such thing as anarcho capitalism? um ok.... good comeback

The capitalists aren't in power the facists are in joint power and they create a lovely two headed snake with the tyrannical government

Bean Machine
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:46 pm

Re: Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Post by Bean Machine » Wed May 22, 2013 4:30 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
Emissary wrote:
Central planning doesn't work, it's been proven a several massive scales,
But not is a socialist economy
Sure it is. Public ownership of the means of production (the dictionary definition of socialism, thank you very much) --> government control of the means of production --> government control of the economy (ie. central planning.)

Boy, this logic stuff sure is hard, isn't it?

Emissary
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Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 11:27 am

Re: Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Post by Emissary » Wed May 22, 2013 4:42 pm

Bean Machine wrote:
Funk N. Furter wrote:
Emissary wrote:
Central planning doesn't work, it's been proven a several massive scales,
But not is a socialist economy
Sure it is. Public ownership of the means of production (the dictionary definition of socialism, thank you very much) --> government control of the means of production --> government control of the economy (ie. central planning.)

Boy, this logic stuff sure is hard, isn't it?
Left wingers tend not to use logic, they use obfuscation and mass amounts of rhetoric. I wouldn't even bother arguing with the guy, he suggests the use of force to get what he wants, he's a tyrant and needs to be ignored.

Jack McOck
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Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:06 pm

Re: Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Post by Jack McOck » Wed May 22, 2013 4:47 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
Jack McOck wrote: I'm in favor of this. Everything the government runs is cheaper and more efficient. And the idea that an individual should be allowed to start his own business is horrible. Tarekith, from now on, all decisions regarding your mastering service must be put to a vote.
Congratulations, you're catching on. I'm not going to comment on Tarekith, whoever he is.

However you have to bear in mind that the goal of socialism is NO GOVERNMENT. But state involvement is needed at the start for 2 obvious reasons.

1. Because some capitalists will fight back and attempt sabotage etc.

2. Because you need to have an integrated system. Take electricity for instance. It was privatised in the UK by Thatcher I think. Now I can buy my electricity from several different companies. It's still the same electricity! It doesn't matter who I buy it off, it's the same leccy coming down the same wires from the same power station. The privatisation thing brought us one big benefit. The huge bonus that is thousands of people employed to do the vital and productive job of phoning you up to see if you want to change which company you pay this exact same electricity from. It's no cheaper, no better. It must be a lot less efficient becaus most of their staff do these useless unproductive sales jobs. You can't justify it. Nobody can. It's a joke. A joke on us.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that it is not privatised. I haven't looked this up, but I'm willing to bet that the government still controls a substantial part of the UK's energy services.

Jack McOck
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Re: Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Post by Jack McOck » Wed May 22, 2013 4:48 pm

Emissary wrote:Left wingers tend not to use logic, they use obfuscation and mass amounts of rhetoric. I wouldn't even bother arguing with the guy, he suggests the use of force to get what he wants, he's a tyrant and needs to be ignored.
+1.

I withdraw from this debate until the questions raised by the thinking minority have been answered.
Last edited by Jack McOck on Wed May 22, 2013 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

stringtapper
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Re: Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Post by stringtapper » Wed May 22, 2013 4:50 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:I routinely walk up to strangers in the street and ask them if they are going to kill themselves. Only some of them kick the living shit out of me.
Being armed at all times can remedy that part. Trust me. :wink:

But I guess that's not an option there on the island.
Unsound Designer

Bean Machine
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Re: Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Post by Bean Machine » Wed May 22, 2013 5:01 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:I don't need to, I'm too stupid to refute them.
FYP.
I've given you plenty to go on anyway, but you have ideological blinkers on. Hitler rounded up all the socialists as soon as he got into power. He got into power by banning them from campaigning for the election. He hated socialists.
I see... And the fact that Catholics and Protestants murdered each other in gleeful abandon throughout the centuries must prove that they, too, were ideological opposites?

Bean Machine
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:46 pm

Re: Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Post by Bean Machine » Wed May 22, 2013 5:12 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
Bean Machine wrote:
Funk N. Furter wrote:As for the second bit, you do not 'impose' socialism. Of course some force is required.
"Required" for what, precisely? If you don't have anything to impose, what do you need force for? Huffing paint thinner, perhaps?
The masses impose it on the 1%. But socialists cannot impose it on the masses.
I see. Hypothetical question:

47.9% of the "masses" decide they don't want socialism and elect to form their own anarcho-capitalist society, separate from the emerging socialist one next door. Do the socialists allow them to coexist peacefully and not attempt to appropriate the property belonging to those in this an-cap society for themselves?

lowshelf
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Location: UK

Re: Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Post by lowshelf » Wed May 22, 2013 6:09 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:Only 2 people died in the Russian revolution
GTFOH

H20nly
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Re: Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Post by H20nly » Wed May 22, 2013 6:28 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:No racism is not a deep human instinct, it is not a human instinct, it is a recent invention by capitalism to justify slavery and colonialism.
Yes, racism was invented by Benjamin Franklin and John Hancock in Virginia in 1776 right after some hot man sex.
LoopStationZebra wrote:it's like a hipster commie pinko manifesto. Rambling. Angry. Nearly divorced from all reality; yet strangely compelling with a ring of truth.

lowshelf
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Location: UK

Re: Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Post by lowshelf » Wed May 22, 2013 6:31 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
lowshelf wrote:
Funk N. Furter wrote:Only 2 people died in the Russian revolution
GTFOH
I'm talking about October 1917 in Petrograd.
Oh thanks for the timeframe clarification. Just wanted to query it, in between studying these rather charming paintings of this young German fellow from the early 20th century. Hmm I wonder what happened to him.

H20nly
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Re: Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Post by H20nly » Wed May 22, 2013 6:33 pm

yes the guys who built the pyramids were volunteers. before the colonists, essentially Americans, invented racism in 1776 there was never any type of racial profiling or discrimination in history. in fuct, the British and the French are prime examples of two peoples from two countries who have never had a mean thing to say about anyone.

SuburbanThug
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Re: Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Post by SuburbanThug » Wed May 22, 2013 7:23 pm

When racism or subjugation of another culture appears in history has little to do with proving whether it is human instinct or not. The pyramids were created by a culture with a vast social construct. Anecdotally, some tribes who have never seen a white person actually revere them when they see them for the first time. I bet a couple people here will have fun with that one at their jingoist dock parties tonight.

As far as anarcho-capitalism is concerned, I think maybe some of you do not understand the word anarchy. Take a quote from one of your heroes, Murray Rothbard, to light your way.

"We must therefore turn to history for enlightenment; here we find that none of the proclaimed anarchist groups correspond to the libertarian position, that even the best of them have unrealistic and socialistic elements in their doctrines. Furthermore, we find that all of the current anarchists are irrational collectivists, and therefore at opposite poles from our position. We must therefore conclude that we are not anarchists, and that those who call us anarchists are not on firm etymological ground, and are being completely unhistorical."
Murray N. Rothbard

SuburbanThug
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Re: Socialism will save us all (technology edition)

Post by SuburbanThug » Wed May 22, 2013 7:26 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote: Why have you got suburban thug's sig?
It's all he could come up with in an attempt to harass me via the internet, I guess... Just the usual shit you come to expect from supporters of a system built on bullying and screwing your neighbor.

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