Climate Change - Redux

Discussion of anything not related to audio or music production
regretfullySaid
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Re: Climate Change - Redux

Post by regretfullySaid » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:40 pm

SAVING THE PLANET, BITCH! THAS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT!
ImageImage

H20nly
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Re: Climate Change - Redux

Post by H20nly » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:24 am

Jack McOck wrote: green Tabasco
It's these types of posts that keep my adoration for you alive

That's what's wrong with the climate... Not nearly enough green Tabasco.

Forge.
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Re: Climate Change - Redux

Post by Forge. » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:24 am

well done all of you on almost instantly destroying his utopian ideal of havin a new thread that stayed on topic!
:lol: :lol:

But to answer your post Earthloop - I posted these two books amongst the rubble of the last thread:

Forge. wrote:
Author Garte, Seymour, 1947-
Title Where we stand : a surprising look at the real state of our planet / Seymour Garte.
Publisher New York : AMACOM, c2008.
Summary

Global warming, new epidemics, and the destruction of natural resources have all made the future of the planet seem increasingly dire. But the real truth, according to respected scientist Dr. Seymour Garte, is that the environment is actually in better shape than we have been led to believe.

Where We Standwill serve as a reality check for a debate surrounded by controversy. Garte presents irrefutable evidence that the state of the environment and human welfare has been improving steadily for the past two decades and that our efforts to " save the planet" are working. Contrary to popular opinion, the air and water are getting cleaner, cancer rates are decreasing, and forestation is improving. Meant to motivate - not to lull - Where We Standwill energize future efforts with the knowledge that we canmake a difference. In giving us the good news, Garte does not neglect the bad; those issues that urgently need to be dealt with. There is still work to be done, but with a clearer picture of where we stand today, we will have a better chance for tomorrow. Hopeful, balanced, and convincing, this is a book that will change the way readers view the planet and the future.
That's right, Derrick Jensen's argument is returning to a completely agrarian lifestyle:
Author Jensen, Derrick, 1960-
Title Endgame / Derrick Jensen.
Publisher New York : Seven Stories Press, c2006.
Edition Seven Stories Press 1st ed.
Summary
The long-awaited companion piece to Jensen's immensely popular and highly acclaimed works A Language Older than Words and The Culture of Make Believe, Endgame stands to become Jensen's most influential book. Building on a series of simple but increasingly provocative premises, Jensen leaves us hoping for what may be inevitable: a return to agrarian communal life via the disintegration of civilisation itself. |Derrick Jensen is a rare and original voice of sanity in a chaotic world.| - Howard Zinn
I get the feeling the second one might be closer to what you were talking about, but in truth I didn't get around to reading much of it. He started off expressing how despairing he'd become after years as an environmental activist, and he seemed pretty disillusioned and I think he was arguing that basically returning to an agrarian way of life is the ONLY solution.

I think what you're saying about decentralising is right, and in Australia of course it makes the most sense to have solar panels on the roof of every home. We were actually making a bit of progress with that one under the last government until Campbell Newman got in and instantly destroyed it to help out his rich mining buddies.

But somebody wise once said instead of fighting against the government/corporations it's better to just make them irrelevant.

Forge.
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Re: Climate Change - Redux

Post by Forge. » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:26 pm

does anyone know much about Bitcoin?

It seems to tie in with that idea of not fighting the status quo, just making it irrelevant.

earthloop
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Re: Climate Change - Redux

Post by earthloop » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:29 pm

Forge. wrote:well done all of you on almost instantly destroying his utopian ideal of havin a new thread that stayed on topic!
:lol: :lol:
Thanks for the backup, Forge! :D
Forge. wrote:
But somebody wise once said instead of fighting against the government/corporations it's better to just make them irrelevant.
That is exactly what I am on about. Creating a system which places the means of production in the hands of, well, anybody!

We now live in a post industrial age technologically: time to deploy it (the tech, that is).

What is that? Libertarian anarco-capitalism??? Or Fabian socialist libertarianism??? :lol:

earthloop
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Re: Climate Change - Redux

Post by earthloop » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:58 pm

Funk N. Furter wrote:
earthloop wrote:
What we need to do now, imo, is to decentralise the processes of goods and services production by deploying the technologies we now have to produce more locally ... especially the most highly polluting industries like energy production and transport (especially road transport). The idea is to create populations of people in smaller scale (but not tiny like villages) who spend more time making things than just consuming things.

It is this type of change which will be the primary driver of rapid reduction of carbon pollution because it will drive research into ways of using alternative manufacturing processes to create the industrial products which we need. Well, this is just an outline...a brief sketch of a thesis I am developing for a PhD. in sustainable development. There is much more to it but it is late and I am tired . I thought I would put this up for discussion and critique as I would like some feedback and, of course as the thread title suggests, to 'reboot' this discussion.

Cheers! :D
Hi earthloop. I'm not opposed to some decentralisation, but surely you need things like a national grid? How do you envisage the energy industry evolving, private ownership or nationalisation?
Nah. In fact a large extended 'mono-grid' is about the most inefficient way to distribute energy possible. (short of carrying fire from one place to another :P ) It just developed bit by bit over time in any developed country by default as population centres grew and spread out. No one actually designed it this way.

What I personally would LIKE to see is local community owned energy co-ops which share a broad national network. In other words, privately owned at the local level...not corporately or state owned.


It also means that we can develop and deploy new energy production technologies very quickly, unlike the massive investment and long development time of large centralised power generating systems (like coal fired and nuclear power stations or even large scale renewable energy systems). In that system only the rich and powerful can play. The real kicker, though, is that this approach takes away the power (no pun intended) of the state and large corporations to make us 'price takers'...just accepting whatever they think they can get away with charging us (aka 'whatever the market will bear') and give the power of deciding not only the cost of energy but also how it is produced in the hands of the public at large. THIS IS A HUGE POLITICAL ISSUE AS IT MEANS GOVERNMENTS WILL HAVE TO BOW TO THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE(AKA VOTERS)!!! And this is where the main driver is: self interest! People already agree with the concept of producing their own power at cost price to them. They just don't at the moment have any way of making it happen on a community wide scale.

The same principle can be applied, with variations, to suit a broad range of services and manufacturing (particularly food and housing). We don't need necessarily to completely eliminate carbon dioxide emissions, just reduce them to a point at which the global ecosystem can absorb them sustainably over time.

I don't want to write an essay here...and most here probably don't want to read one either. :lol:

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Re: Climate Change - Redux

Post by Forge. » Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:15 am

earthloop wrote:
What is that? Libertarian anarco-capitalism??? Or Fabian socialist libertarianism??? :lol:
anarcho-syndicalist commune? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA

Forge.
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Re: Climate Change - Redux

Post by Forge. » Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:18 am

one thing I can see becoming more decentralized (ironically) is the internet. I read something not long ago about communities setting up their own communal wi-fi

especially with all this stuff about NSA and GCHQ coming out people are going to want to go off the grid there as well.

earthloop
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Re: Climate Change - Redux

Post by earthloop » Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:05 pm

Forge. wrote:
earthloop wrote:
What is that? Libertarian anarco-capitalism??? Or Fabian socialist libertarianism??? :lol:
anarcho-syndicalist commune? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA
I was trying to avoid that one... (but it's all true) :lol:

earthloop
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Re: Climate Change - Redux

Post by earthloop » Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:31 pm

Funk N (may I call u Funky for short? :-) )

I think you have misunderstood the fundamental thrust of my argument. I, like you, am a socialist...I believe that everyone should have the most cost effective access to the basics of life, and owning the means of production of these (or having a substantial say in how these are provided) is fundamental to my thesis. It is late here so I will reply in more detail in a few hours, but Here is a link which goes some way (but not all the way) to describing the nature of inefficiency in power generation and distribution. It is a U.S.A. study and it applies even more here in Australia...smaller countries may suffer a little less but still lose out.

I have to say at this point that what I am suggesting is actually very revolutionary and without broad social support (like the environmental movement in general) will not happen. I also happen to have an honours degree on this topic so I do have a clue here. I also live on a disability pension long term so everything I work on in this area is predicated upon the concept of a bottom up financial affordability model...everyone should be able to afford what they need! :idea:

Here is the link...

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea ... grid-49238


google electricity grid efficiency for more:

mikemc
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Re: Climate Change - Redux

Post by mikemc » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:24 pm

I think that renewable energy is a great thing and making more available is a worthwhile goal.however, the whole climate change, which is a movement towards climate extremes, extreme weather, may really only be nudged by human countermeasures.

is an interesting site that discusses the changes in our Sun's magnetic field, our planet's magnetic field, and climate. Http://suspicious0bservers.org

Forge.
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Re: Climate Change - Redux

Post by Forge. » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:49 am

if you put solar panels on every roof you wouldn't need power lines unless you were putting excess back in to the grid, which would be a good idea in the short term but eventually they would become redundant

I was reading just recently that production is becoming very cheap

H20nly
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Re: Climate Change - Redux

Post by H20nly » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:38 pm

i think that people spending all day typing up diatribes about how the blame is on America and Americans is really to blame here. think of all the energy spent. could this not be used for something more positive like growing parsley or making a graph about the misuses and misrepresentations of data in graphs?

:idea:

Forge.
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Re: Climate Change - Redux

Post by Forge. » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:49 pm

H20nly wrote:i think that people spending all day typing up diatribes about how the blame is on America and Americans is really to blame here. think of all the energy spent. could this not be used for something more positive like growing parsley or making a graph about the misuses and misrepresentations of data in graphs?

:idea:
did you post this in the right thread?

I don't think America was mentioned once

earthloop
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Re: Climate Change - Redux

Post by earthloop » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:54 pm

H20nly wrote:i think that people spending all day typing up diatribes about how the blame is on America and Americans is really to blame here. think of all the energy spent. could this not be used for something more positive like growing parsley or making a graph about the misuses and misrepresentations of data in graphs?

:idea:
I think you have mistakenly posted in the wrong thread H2Only. And it is not about anarcho syndicalism or monty python . :wink:
Last edited by earthloop on Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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